Interview with Raf Epstein on ABC Radio Melbourne

‍Subjects: Migration, Housing, Budget

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E&OE.........

Raf Epstein

Andrew Bragg joins us, he is part of Angus Taylor's team, he is the Shadow Minister for Housing. Good morning.

Senator Bragg

Hi Raf, how are you?

Raf Epstein

I'm good. Just the bare bolts of it if you can, linking migration and housing, what are you proposing?

Senator Bragg

Well for many years I've been asking in Senate Estimates why doesn't the government model the fact that we've had 1.4 million people come into the country but we've only built 600,000 houses. Why don't they do that sort of analysis so we can see what sort of impact that's having on Australians? The government laugh and guffaw at that, they think it's all too silly for words. But we think there is a nexus there that is part of the housing solution. And so we'll be doing that modelling between migration and housing and we'll be looking to cap certain visa classes if we don't get the right number of completions.

Raf Epstein

So is it literally build one house, let in one migrant next year?

Senator Bragg

Firstly we're going to conduct the proper modelling so we can actually see how many houses we need to house Australians. Secondly it would be putting in place caps to ensure that the housing completions keep up with migration levels, yes.

Raf Epstein

Which Free Trade Agreement will you need to rip up first? The one with Britain or the one with India?

Senator Bragg

Well I don't think that we'd need to do that, I mean other countries including Canada, Mark Carney have reduced migration levels to ease housing. I mean as you know the housing issue is complex. Part of it is the fact that we've...

Raf Epstein

So complex your plan is unworkable.

Senator Bragg

The Labor government have collapsed supply, so they've spent $80 billion to build fewer houses than the prior government. They've collapsed supply by 30,000 houses a year on average since they've been in office. So you've had a collapse in supply and you've had a large growth in population, so you've got to fix supply, you've also got to make sure that you've got the right number of people coming into the country.

Raf Epstein

I still haven't heard the plan yet. I just, what I'm trying to clarify Andrew Bragg...

Senator Bragg

Sure.

Raf Epstein

We've got more than 50 agreements. We've been letting people come from New Zealand since Gough Whitlam was Prime Minister. All of those agreements allow people to come. The government does not say how many. So which country are you going to say we're limiting who's coming? Which country?

Senator Bragg

Well as you know, Australia is in control of its migration program. That is not in question. I mean international agreements and other bilateral arrangements don't impinge on our ability to run our own country Raf, you know that.

Raf Epstein

I also know that the government doesn't stand at the border and count one, two, three, four, five, six okay stop. No government does that. Most of the number you're talking about, the net overseas migration number, the government says who can come. The government doesn't say how many people can come. I haven't heard how you are going to change that.

Senator Bragg

Well as I said, the idea is that you would conduct the modelling to work out how many houses you need to house Australians, then you would have a migration program which fits inside your housing completions program.

Raf Epstein

How?

Senator Bragg

Well if you don't get a number of houses that you need to house Australians, yes, then you look to cap certain visa classes.

Raf Epstein

So who's not going to come? Is it the people from Vietnam who cut up the chicken I buy at the supermarket? Is it the Irish barber that I get my beard trimmed, who trims my beard? Who? Have you got a vibe or have you got a plan?

Senator Bragg

Well that's the body of work that we'll be doing. As you know the Budget in Reply is tonight, there'll be a statement issued tonight alongside the Budget in Reply and there's more work to do after that. But I mean the idea of doing this...

Raf Epstein

So more work to do, there's a vibe.

Senator Bragg

The point is that if you don't build enough houses then you make things very hard for Australians. And you also make it harder on migrants. I mean we want good people. Australia is a great country, we want people to come to our country, and it's important that we maintain confidence in the Migration Program. So we have to make sure we have the right number of houses to house new people as well as the people that already live here. I don't think it's an unreasonable proposition.

Raf Epstein

I think you are making a series of arguments and a series of statements around migration and we'll see if voters like that and we'll see if callers like that and that's your job as a politician, that's totally fine. Everything you've said is something that's all totally fine.

Senator Bragg

We're not blaming migrants Raf, we're blaming the government for mismanaging it.

Raf Epstein

Can I get the question now? I didn't say you were blaming migrants. You've put an argument about housing and migration. You said you're not blaming migrants. I still have no idea how you are going to turn it from a vibe into a plan. You can't tell me a single visa class that you're going to cap.

Senator Bragg

Well we'll obviously be consulting with business and industry about the best way to do it. I mean we don't want to damage the economy. Skilled migration is very important in Australia and for example we've indicated that we would recalibrate the migration settings to bring in more tradies. So for example we are 80,000 tradies short in Australia. Last year we only got 4,000 tradies in on visas. And so we need to be bringing in more tradies to build the houses. I mean the housing supply...

Raf Epstein

Again that's a vibe not a plan. You can say you want more people, which visa class are you going to cut from which country to suit your argument?

Senator Bragg

Well I just told you, we'll be consulting on that. There's a policy announcement tonight and we'll be consulting on how best to achieve that.

Raf Epstein

Will we know before the election which country you're going to limit migration from?

Senator Bragg

Of course there'll be more work done on this Raf. But I mean the point is that the supply crisis has been delivered to you by the Labor Party right? They have spent $80 billion on housing to build 30,000 fewer houses a year. They are hopeless when it comes to housing supply.

Raf Epstein

Well that misrepresents their Budget number, but continue.

Senator Bragg

Well at the end of the day I can use their Budget number which is $47 billion. They've spent $47 billion in their words to build 30,000 fewer houses each year.

Raf Epstein

So you're happy to use the numbers in their Budget? Can I just pick you up there Andrew Bragg? You're happy with that 30,000 reduction number? You accept that number in their Budget?

Senator Bragg

That they've built 30,000 fewer houses a year?

Raf Epstein

No, that their tax changes, negative gearing will produce 30,000 fewer homes. You're happy to accept that number?

Senator Bragg

Well that's a different point Raf. I mean the point that they make in their own Budget that their new taxes will reduce housing supply by 35,000 is a national embarrassment. I mean why would a nation like Australia want to reduce housing supply? I mean these people are insane. Absolutely insane.

Raf Epstein

Insane. Andrew Bragg by the way is the Shadow Minister for Housing. Just one other part of the story I guess Andrew Bragg. You spoke about more tradies to build houses. The Master Builders were on AM saying that. How? But where are they going to come from? I'm just trying to work out how you get those extra people here.

Senator Bragg

Well we just want the best. Australia has been a country that has always been in the market for the best people. Right? That's why we've been a successful migrant nation. And we need to apply that same logic and be more strategic and bring in the builders and the tradies that we need. And so some of those visa classes need to be changed, that's a technical detail which we'll be consulting on.

Raf Epstein

So that's a vibe not a plan again.

Senator Bragg

Well I mean these are very complicated things right? The individual visa classes which determine you know what sort of masonry people and what sort of...

Raf Epstein

How many years have we had a shortage of tradies building houses?

Senator Bragg

The government have been there for four years and it's getting worse.

Raf Epstein

Ok, so if it's gotten worse over four years why do you still not have a plan? You've just got a vibe.

Senator Bragg

Well we're in Opposition right? So we've just had a change of leader, Angus is doing his Budget Reply tonight. There'll be more details to come. But I mean I make the point that the government have been there for four years. They've collapsed housing supply, and they don't seem to show any signs that they're going to bring in the tradies that we need to build the houses that Australians desperately need. In fact the government have a plan to reduce housing supply by 35,000 according to page 158 of Budget Paper 1.

Raf Epstein

And you don't have a plan to increase the number of tradies?

Senator Bragg

Well of course we'll be recalibrating migration to bring in the tradies that we need. I've made that point. But I just think it's extraordinary to think that we live in a country where the government can spend tens of billions of dollars on housing to build fewer houses. I mean the Housing Future Fund has been a disaster. The 5% deposits have pushed up house prices. And now these tax changes are going to result in even fewer houses and fewer opportunities for Australia. I mean Australia is a hard place to live in. You've got the most punitive Pay As You Go system in the OECD pretty much and now you're going to have the highest Capital Gains in the OECD. So it's pretty hard going.

Raf Epstein

One thing I didn't ask you Andrew Bragg, the Treasurer yesterday accused you of dog whistling with this policy.

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Senator Bragg

Did he? I didn't hear that.

Raf Epstein

Oh well you're in the Senate so you're allowed to not hear that. I played the grab to my listeners earlier. Tim Wilson asked him a question. He said that they can hear the dog whistle in Goldstein as well. By targeting migration as a solution to housing, are you dog whistling?

Senator Bragg

I mean give me a break. I mean this guy is such a loser. I mean how desperate could you be? I mean after presiding over a decade of deficits and a trillion dollars of debt, and now proposing to have a design feature to have lower housing supply. I mean he obviously hates young people because what he's doing is he's locking in a low supply model and a high price bubble option with his 5% deposits. So I mean I'm not going to take any advice from that guy.

Raf Epstein

Thank you for joining us this morning, I appreciate you reorganising your morning.

Senator Bragg

Thanks Raf, see ya.

Raf Epstein

Andrew Bragg is the Shadow Minister for Housing, he's part of Angus Taylor's Shadow Cabinet. Angus Taylor is the alternative Prime Minister, the Opposition Leader.
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[Ends]

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