Interview with Patricia Karvelas on ABC Afternoon Briefing

‍Patricia Karvelas:

Shadow Housing Minister Andrew Bragg joins me now. Welcome to the program.

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Senator Bragg:

Hi PK.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Big speech today. What would you have done differently now if you had your time again? You never will, it doesn't work that way for any of us, but in the Morrison government, what do you think they did that was so bad?

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Senator Bragg:

Well, I think we should have maintained stronger fiscal discipline. Of course, with hindsight, it's easy to say that we shouldn't have locked up healthy people as happened in the COVID pandemic, but in general, it's really about Budget controls over the long run. I mean, the fact that the country now has given up on ever getting back to surplus, I think just means we're passing the buck to future taxpayers.

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Patricia Karvelas:

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Okay, things like JobSeeker—I mean JobKeeper rather, was that a mistake?

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Senator Bragg:

Well, it was a very expensive program, but I mean, don't forget the Labor Party wanted it to go further, and they did, and paid to foreign workers and the like. I think there was a case for temporary protective mechanisms that were in place there, but it's really the longer-term fiscal trajectory that concerns me, not individual interactions or payments that I think is our problem now in Australia because we've given up on the Budget.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Right, so you think the Morrison government had given up on the Budget as well?

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Senator Bragg:

Well, I think it's been given up on by everyone for a very long time. And I think this is not necessarily news, but it's almost as if we are pretending it's not happening. And the problem with this strategy is, of course, that everything you consume is borrowed money. So therefore you're going to have to increase taxes in the future to fix it.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Well, you have to pay for it, for sure. So there's different ways of paying for it.

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Senator Bragg:

So it feels very unfair, and I think when people know this—I don't think people are disconnected from this. They might not read all the Budget papers, but people generally know that the fiscal position of the country impacts them and their families' future, and I think that we ought to take that seriously again.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Okay, let's go to some of the ideas in your speech. One of them was 180,000 being an achievable sort of number. Already your colleagues are saying that's not agreed to by the Shadow Cabinet. So is it just a thought bubble, or is it policy?

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Senator Bragg:

So the point here is that you have a mismatch between the houses completed and the people coming into the country through the Migration Program. And the gap in people terms is about 350 to 400,000. That's the gap that Labor's created. You can close that if you have a NOM of around 180,000 over the forward estimates. 

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Patricia Karvelas:

But to get to that number, you've got to cut back on backpackers, international students, and those decisions have not been made. In fact, there are those in your Shadow Cabinet who don't think backpackers should be cut back on.

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Senator Bragg:

Well, I made it very clear today that these are all parameters and assumptions, but ultimately, that's the range you're going to have to be in if you want to use this lever to help fix the housing system, and there are other things that need to be done in the housing system. So the point is, the way you do this in terms of the visas and the different classes, that's something that we need to work out, but I just thought it was important to move the debate on into the ranges that we need to be in if we want to use this lever to try and help the housing disaster that we're in now.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Okay, and backpackers and international students, you can't get to that figure without cutting them. Do you accept that?

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Senator Bragg:

Oh, well there's a lot of different visas, there's a lot of different visa classes, there's a lot of different ways that you can get there.

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Patricia Karvelas:

All of the experts say unless you deal with those numbers, you will not get to your 180,000. So you have to.

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Senator Bragg:

So we had a NOM up towards 300,000, which came down to 175,000 - fifteen, sixteen years ago. So that was done in the past, it can be done again. As I say, I think it's important to be clear about these are the ranges we're talking about, okay? Let's talk about some numbers. That's where we are, it's going to need to be around 180,000 or thereabouts. And so we need to work out how we actually operationalise that, and that's something that we can keep on talking about.

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Patricia Karvelas:

There's a division in the Senate. Do you have to go or can you stay?

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Senator Bragg:

No, I can talk to you.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Great, thank God. But I had to ask because, you know, I believe in democracy and all of that. Okay, one of the other ideas is that you want to cut down this building code to 80 pages from 2,000. Clare O'Neil is the Housing Minister, she was on a little earlier, she said the things you want to cut back are outrageous. She's talking sewerage, she says agreements on that, the energy standards which basically mean that, you know, you can live in a house that doesn't become extremely hot and unliveable. That's all true, isn't it? The standards are about those things.

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Senator Bragg:

In Australia, we live in a free society. I believe you should be able to build a cheap house if you want to. 

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Patricia Karvelas:

A terrible house that can get to 50 degrees, as long as the roof doesn’t fall. That’s a pretty low standard, isn’t it?

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Senator Bragg:

Right now, we have to consider carefully Maslow’s hierarchy. We are desperate to get a housing boom. We can’t get one under Labor’s waste and corruption model where you have high taxes and regulation. And so what we need to do is allow people to build like mad. More granny flats, airspace, buildings on top of other buildings, subdivisions, whatever. And we need to get the houses out the door quickly. If people want to have more things they can have goldplating, it is up to them. 

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay. It’s not quite goldplating though. Some of these standards, sewerage and energy, they are not just goldplating. They’re standards, to live in a liveable house in Australia. 

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Senator Bragg:

I believe you should be able to live in a cheap house if you want to. The basic Australian standard that we have put out today would be a basic house, basic amenity, safe, won't burn down, won't fall over, it's basic and safe. Okay? And if you want to have disability access, and you want to have super-duper energy efficiency, you can, it's just not compulsory anymore.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Okay. We'll leave that one there. I wonder though actually why 80 pages is so important? Like do the page numbers actually...

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Senator Bragg:

Well, it's really about the cost, right? I mean right now, if you want to build a new house, it assumes you're disabled and you want to have the most super-duper, most expensive energy efficiency.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Okay. Let's talk about tax because you said the top tax rates for individuals are too high and should have a 3 in front of them. That sounds like a new policy on tax. That's not what Angus Taylor quite announced, is it?

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Senator Bragg:

Well, as I said, the direction of travel we're on with the tax back guarantee is good, but I think we need to be more ambitious. We should be looking to have an agenda over the medium term which seriously cuts the backside out of the repressive tax system. And we should be working towards lower, flatter taxes, which promote enterprise, small business, ingenuity. We have to do that.

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Patricia Karvelas:

You also want to go after the tech giants. You sounded a little like the Greens when you were saying that. You want to go after Meta and I was listening to it and I thought, what's happened to Andrew Bragg? What do you want to do there?

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Senator Bragg:

Well with $35 billion in revenue and only a handful of taxes paid, this is an obvious place to go.

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Patricia Karvelas:

It's hard to do it, isn't it, because they're all domiciled in other countries, aren't they?

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Senator Bragg:

It is hard to do, but they're using transfer pricing and they're saying their intellectual property resides offshore in Ireland and Singapore and whatever else, and that's not necessarily always appropriate. Because we generally try and tax people at the point in which they make revenue. So we should try and get some more money out of these people. I think they have lots of it.

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Patricia Karvelas:

Oh, I don't think people would disagree with that watching. They would think that's a logical thing to do. But actually achieving it is different. Are you pushing internally for a really comprehensive policy to go after these multinational, you know, tech bros as people like to call them?

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Senator Bragg:

We have to do it ourselves as a sovereign nation because I just don't think the OECD BEPS process is going to give us the rivers of gold we deserve that matches the economic, social and cultural footprint that these organisations have in our nation.

Patricia Karvelas:
Just a couple of other things you mentioned in your speech which I thought were interesting. You talked about Pauline Hanson's One Nation and the monoculture. We played a little earlier some comments—I think I've sent them to you so I made sure you'd been able to see them—that were made by a candidate for One Nation in WA. Barnaby Joyce has denounced them a little earlier on the show. They were very, I think people would broadly say they vilified gay people. He says One Nation is the gayest party in Australia. What's your response to that?

Senator Bragg:
Well that's very interesting. I didn't know that. Is that a new campaign slogan?

Patricia Karvelas:
He told me that. He really did.

Senator Bragg:
Okay, well, that's, I'm very happy for Barnaby if that's part of his new...schtik.

Patricia Karvelas:
What do you make of the fact that this guy actually ran for One Nation?

Senator Bragg:
Well, it sounds like he probably shouldn't be trying to get any public office positions if that's his view. That would be really a matter for the electors though, I would have thought.

Patricia Karvelas:
Well they didn't vote for him last time, so he didn't get elected. But either way, I think this vetting issue and the kind of comments that are becoming more mainstream seem to be concerning some people. Are you concerned about it?

Senator Bragg:
Well, look, the way I see it is - competition is always good. So if One Nation is injecting competition into the system, great. Like, let's respond to that, and let's be more ambitious with policy. Because I think we have the capacity to show the Australian people the leadership they're wanting, that's lacking from this terrible socialist government. And I think that starts with economic policy. And I think the more we talk about that, rather than ourselves or what we think of other people, is going to hold us in good stead.

Patricia Karvelas:
You say it over and over again, it's your favourite new thing, 'socialist' and 'communists'. 

Senator Bragg:
They're terrible, I'm over it. 

Patricia Karvelas:
I understand you don't like the government, that's fine, you're a Liberal Senator, but 'socialist'?

Senator Bragg:
Well the socialism is in their agenda by the way, it's part of their party platform.

Patricia Karvelas:
But you know, we know what communism looks like. I do have to challenge you. We know what communism looks like. If you're a student of history, some younger people might not actually, but they're not communist.

Senator Bragg:
Well, not much. I mean everything, everything's compulsory.

Patricia Karvelas:
We've got enterprise and business in this country.

Senator Bragg:
You've got a new tax on everything, apparently to fix the housing crisis, which is going to make it worse. That's the destruction of individual and family wealth. That's communism. Then you've got all this compulsory stuff, whether it's all the stuff that Clare was talking about with the houses that are too expensive for poor people to purchase, you've got compulsory superannuation, as I said today, there'll be superannuation for cats and dogs soon.

Patricia Karvelas:
Are you against—do you want to dismantle compulsory superannuation? 

Senator Bragg:
I'm very sceptical about mandates. I'm very sceptical that they work. As I said in my speech today...

Patricia Karvelas:
Would you like your party to retreat from actually paying super, employers paying super?

Senator Bragg:
Well, I'm a believer in choice. I made it very clear in my first speech and it's still my opinion that people should have more choice. I think the super scheme has been a massive failure, probably the biggest failure of public policy in the last 50 years, because it's failed to help the Budget and it doesn't really help people. What it does do is it helps banks and unions and all the other bloodsuckers that are on the tick of the system.

Patricia Karvelas:
So are you trying to dismantle the superannuation scheme, is that what you're trying to do? Is that the sort of policy you'd like to take to the next election?

Senator Bragg:
I mean, I'm a Liberal arguing for more individual freedom, and I think that this is a very repressive system and that's why I call it communism, because there are many elements that look communist to me.

Patricia Karvelas:
Okay, well, you could call it what you want, but I had to contest it. 

Senator Bragg:
Fair enough. 

Patricia Karvelas:
Because I've studied a few communist regimes and I think we're a bit different.

Senator Bragg:
Maybe.

Patricia Karvelas:
Yeah, we are 

Senator Bragg:
We're getting there. We're getting there. 

Patricia Karvelas:
Come on. Andrew Bragg, thank you.

Senator Bragg:
Thank you.

[Ends] - Media Contact | David Nouri | 0401 392 624

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