Interview with Hamish Macdonald on ABC Radio Sydney

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12 August 2026

Subjects: Net overseas migration, Housing supply, Housing affordability, National Construction Code, Skilled migration visas, Anthony Albanese's conduct

E&OE.........

Hamish Macdonald:

Senator Andrew Bragg is here this morning. Good morning to you.

Senator Bragg:

Hamish, how you going?

Hamish Macdonald:

Very well, thank you. What are you going to set out in this speech today?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, it's a broad address which deals with the economic challenges the nation faces. But in relation to housing, we have a housing system which is not supplying as many as it should. That's largely because of the government's waste, their taxes, their regulation, and their mismanagement of migration.

Hamish Macdonald:

So let's talk about the migration numbers first, and we'll get to the housing issues—I know it's linked. But the Coalition wants to take net overseas migration levels to under 180,000 people per year on average. That target is 45,000 lower than Labor's short-term forecast and 120,000 below last year's intake. So how would you do that?

Senator Bragg:

So what I'm saying today is this is the sort of range you'd need to have if you wanted to close the housing gap. So we have 350,000 to 400,000 people who are not having the appropriate housing because of the mismatch between housing supply and migration. And so, if you wanted to close that gap, you'd need to bring the net overseas migration number down to that range of around 180,000, for example. Of course, this all depends on the assumptions and the parameters, but that's sort of the range we think it would need to be.

Hamish Macdonald:

And would you be committing to delivering that? Or you're just saying that's the range that you would need to match the housing stock?

Senator Bragg:

Well, what we've said is we will model the impact of this, and that would start by looking at, well, what is the mismatch? And then there would be a cap on the number of migrants you can have based on the mismatch. So this is a way to help close the demand side of the housing crisis. And I think what you'll see is more confidence in the migration system, but also you'll see more affordability in the housing system if you get this part of the puzzle right.

Hamish Macdonald:

So, effectively in future years, if you were to be elected, the net migration number—which is not just the people arriving, it includes the outflow as well—this would be attached to the plans for construction of new houses or the completed new houses. How would you create that link?

Senator Bragg:

So what you'd say is that's your cap. So let's say, for example, if it was 180,000, then that's as many people you can have in the country. And what you'd have to make sure that you do is you get the best value out of that cap. So you'd have to bring in more skilled trades, more people who can make a significant contribution to the country, because I think it's only reasonable that we focus very carefully on having enough houses for Australians. I mean, you can't run this forever as it has been running over the last few years, where you've had a massive mismatch between the number of migrants coming into the country and the number of houses being supplied.

Hamish Macdonald:

But I just want to clarify though, are you talking about completed houses or plans for new dwellings?

Senator Bragg:

No, they need to be complete, completed.

Hamish Macdonald:

Ok. So that might mean really radical cuts in the immediate term, because there's obviously a pretty long lead time with some of this stuff, isn't there?

Senator Bragg:

Well, you're looking at a NOM this year of about 300,000. So if it came down by 100,000, that would be a significant change. But it's not unusual in Australian history; this has happened before, back about 15 years ago when there was a significant contraction in the migration numbers. So it can be achieved. But I make the point that we want to get the best possible Australians as well. We want to actually change the composition of the migration, so we bring in more skilled trades who can help us with this massive housing construction gap we have. I mean, what we need is a housing boom. And we're not going to get a housing boom unless we cut regulation, cut taxes, and properly calibrate migration.

Hamish Macdonald:

But we also need the migrant intake for things like the aged care sector, just for example, the health system. I suspect most people listening would see, if they visited a hospital or an aged care facility, that it is maybe predominantly staffed in some circumstances by new migrants. Wouldn't this sort of cut impact the availability of that kind of workforce?

Senator Bragg:

Well, as you know, we love migrants, and we've been probably the most successful migrant nation on earth. And so this is not about saying we don't want to have any migrants. It's saying if you had a range of around 180,000 compared to the 300,000, or actually the 400,000 that Labor have had on average since they've been in office, that's going to help us close the housing gap. And that's still enough people to help service the economy in the ways that you have described. So I'm confident that this is an important part of the housing puzzle.

Hamish Macdonald:

So who are the people that would be excluded from the economy, as it were? Like, I guess that's the part that seems a little unexplained to me. If we're removing significant numbers of people, who are you cutting out?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, there are obviously people here in this country that are staying longer than they should on visas. There would also be, in the main, some reduction in international students. But in terms of the industry distribution and skilled labour, that's something that we're still working on because we know that, for example, we need to bring in more skilled trades and we'd need to change some of the visa classes, caps, and the like. So this is still a work in progress. But I thought it was important to outline that this is the range that we need to be focusing on if we want to close this housing supply conundrum.

Hamish Macdonald:

Do you think you could reach that? Because we're talking about 120,000 below last year's intake. You could get those numbers down based on people that are staying longer than their visas allow and international students?

Senator Bragg:

Well, there's that, there are other things that you can do as well. But in the main—

Hamish Macdonald:

Like?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, I think that there are certain visa classes that we probably have too many of. But we need to make sure that we are very strategic...

Hamish Macdonald:

Like what? Let's be specific.

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, as you know, there's been a lot of debate about whether the government have brought in more yoga teachers than builders.

Hamish Macdonald:

Have they?

Senator Bragg:

They contend that they haven't, but there's a lot of data that shows that they have.

Hamish Macdonald:

What's the data that shows there's more yoga teachers than builders?

Senator Bragg:

Well, there are different ways you can look at the visa classes and how they're presented. But the main point I wanted to make...

Hamish Macdonald:

But do you have any evidence that more yoga teachers have come than builders?

Senator Bragg:

Well, there has been a lot of reporting about this. But I'll make...

Hamish Macdonald:

But do you have any evidence that we can trust in? I mean, let's have a sensible conversation about it.

Senator Bragg:

Well, of course. But I mean, the point is that we want to lift the caps on the skilled trades, right? We think that's more important than, for example...

Hamish Macdonald:

Sure. But is there any actual evidence that there's been more yoga teachers than builders? Like you've made the claim live on air, is there any evidence of it?

Senator Bragg:

Well, of course, there's been a lot of reporting about it, but I'm trying to make the point to you...

Hamish Macdonald:

Where? What?

Senator Bragg:

It's been reported widely. It's been reported widely, you can go through the papers and dig it up.

Hamish Macdonald:

But as you say, the government says that that's not actually correct. So I'm just wondering if you have any evidence of it.

Senator Bragg:

They say a lot of things. They also, you know, run away from actually doing their National Press Club speeches about this exact topic. So I mean, they're a shambles. But the main point I'm making...

Hamish Macdonald:

But there's no evidence that you can supply this morning that demonstrates more yoga teachers have been brought in than builders.

Senator Bragg:

Well, this is a widely circulated claim that you would have seen in the media, and I'm using it as an example that clearly we have not brought in the requisite skills that we need, particularly in the building and the trade sectors over these last four years. Because you can go around and talk to builders and talk to developers and you'll find that they can't get enough local skills, they can't get enough international skilled people. And so we need to change the calibration of the overall skills system to bring in more of these sort of people. Because if we don't, we're not going to have any chance to build these houses. I mean, those are clearly the people we need to help build houses.

Hamish Macdonald:

I mean, I'm just looking at some of the coverage, goes back a couple of years now, Andrew Bragg. The headline, the first headline that comes up is from November 2024: 'Coalition stretches facts in yoga workers housing row'. I mean, come on, can we deal with facts? Is there any actual evidence of this?

Senator Bragg:

Of course, as you know, Hamish, there's been a massive mismanagement of the migration system. We've had over 400,000 people a year coming in on average under this government, and they've only built 170,000 houses on average. So clearly we need to bring in more skilled people. That's going to be a huge priority of a future Coalition government.

Hamish Macdonald:

It's 12 minutes to nine. Senator Andrew Bragg is here in our Parliament House studios this morning ahead of his address at the National Press Club. Can we talk about the construction code? You want to replace a 2,000-page with a new 80-page Basic Australian Standard. What's going into that 80 pages and, importantly, what are you going to leave out from the existing code?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, basically we've got to a point now in Australia where the construction code, which has been put up largely by the unions and frankly other vested interests, is trying to specify pretty much everything you could ever imagine. So we have over 2,000 pages of rules which dictate exactly the form, the layout of standard houses. You want to have a standard basic home, you know, these rules shouldn't be applying to basic homes, they should really only apply to complex builds.

Hamish Macdonald:

But like what? What are the basic features of houses in practice at the moment that you think shouldn't be there that is driving up the cost?

Senator Bragg:

Well, we've set this all out in a new Senate report that we released last night, and that basically says that you can't build a cheap house if you want to. You should be allowed to build a cheap house in my opinion, in Australia. And new houses are built as if the occupants are disabled and they want the most super-duper energy efficient system in the whole world. And I just think that's a very punitive, very expensive thing to impose on people trying to buy, in many cases, their first house.

Hamish Macdonald:

Um, we do need to keep moving, but I want to ask you about this melon issue and the Prime Minister and Japan. Have you seen anything from the Japanese government that indicates they're genuinely upset by this?

Senator Bragg:

I don't think you need to. I think you can just see the way that the Prime Minister engaged in this behaviour was disgusting. He should not have lowered himself by referring to the Prime Minister, or any woman in that way, and he should apologise. Anyone who watches the video can see what he's doing with his hands and can see the gestures making.

Hamish Macdonald:

What is it that you're seeing that is so offensive?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I don't think he would be describing a man's anatomy that way, Hamish.

Hamish Macdonald:

And that's what you think he was doing, is it? Is that the essential issue?

Senator Bragg:

I think you know that. I think you know that he is. Have you seen the video?

Hamish Macdonald:

I have seen the video.

Senator Bragg:

Okay, well you would see he is clearly describing breasts.

Hamish Macdonald:

And so my question is, is the Japanese government actually upset or offended by this? Because you're calling on him to apologise.

Senator Bragg:

Well, I'm not the Japanese government.

Hamish Macdonald:

Well, he should apologise.

Senator Bragg:

He should apologise because it was bloody disgusting what he did. He should apologise because he is the Prime Minister of the country. He should not be engaging in that sort of description of women. It's offensive. And I don't really—I'm not here to speak for the Japanese government, I can tell you that's my opinion. And I think if you speak to most Australians who watch the video and saw it, that would also be their judgment.

Hamish Macdonald:

Senator Andrew Bragg, it's always good to talk. Thank you very much for stopping by.

Senator Bragg:

Thanks Hamish, see ya.

[Ends]