Transcript: Interview with Lisa Millar on ABC News Breakfast

**27 September 2022** **Subjects:** The Big Tech Senate Inquiry, Optus / Privacy Act, a Voice to Parliament **‍** **E &OE…** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Let's go back to Federal Parliament where the Senate has backed an inquiry into the operations of tech giants including Google and Apple. Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg will chair the inquiry. He joins me now from Canberra. Good morning to you, Senator. What are you hoping to achieve here with this? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, good morning, Lisa. One of the most important developments in the past few years has been the extraordinary control over our society and economy that the big tech giants have. And we need to have a very substantial look at what that means for our economy and our society with a view to ensuring that we're actually in control of our own destiny. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ The ACCC has already got an inquiry going into it. What in particular has made you think it needs a Senate inquiry to dive into it? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I think that the Senate and the Parliament can raise the profile and the prominence of the major issues and build public support for changes if they are required. I'm concerned about the use of algorithms. I do think that the vertical integration of some of the major platforms and also the consolidation of hardware and software monopolies is of particular concern. And I look forward to looking into those issues in detail. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Turning to the Optus situation, which is another organisation with a lot of power… **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ I lost you there. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Sorry. Andrew Bragg, can you hear me again? Terrific. Okay. The gremlins that sometimes sneak in. I just wanted to ask you about Optus. The messages that are coming out this morning: Customers are incredibly unhappy about how this has been handled, but the government and Clare O'Neil says it should never have got to this. Has the ball then dropped in what we expect of telcos like Optus when it comes to handling our data, and what's been going on while the Coalition was in government to allow something like this to occur? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Look, I must admit that I didn't get all that question, but I think I got the gist of it. And I think the best answer I can give you is that it's clear that there's not enough sophisticated policy in this space in relation to data management. And I do think that parliamentary inquiries can fill an important role here of looking at all the different issues and angles that are required from a public policy viewpoint. In fact, in the last parliament, we did a very detailed inquiry into cryptocurrency, and a lot of these cyber issues came up in that process. So that's what we're hoping to achieve with this inquiry. In relation to Optus, I mean, Optus has a huge responsibility to the community to manage its data properly, and in fact, Google or Apple would have even probably more data. So in our inquiry, we'll look at the data issues in relation to those technology platforms. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ And Andrew Bragg, if we're just looking at what's going on with Optus right at the moment, Clare O'Neil says that Australia is a decade behind when it comes to protections. Has the ball been dropped? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I mean, clearly the Ransomware Bill that was introduced yesterday as a Private Member's Bill by Karen Andrews, which was a remnant of our government's policy, shows that there were policies developed in the last Parliament in the last period and those should now be enacted. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Why haven't they been enacted? Why are we at the point now where a big telco has to admit that 9 million Australians are facing having their details exploited? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ It's a good question, and I think the best answer I can give you is that the responsibility of data management doesn't fall with just one company. It does fall with a company, but it also falls with the government of the day and the Parliament to enact policy. So this is a shared responsibility here. I mean, the Australian people expect that Parliaments and governments would form a detailed view on these important matters, and that's what we'll do with this new inquiry in relation to big tech platforms. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Yeah, but does it just reveal how lax our data protection has been for years? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ There's no doubt that the Privacy Act has not kept pace with other jurisdictions. I mean, the Europeans are a long way ahead of us here. And one of the things that I want to do with this inquiry is to look at some of these matters in relation to data protection, data privacy, data management. These are some of the biggest issues of our time. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Can I turn to another inquiry that's beginning today and that's in Brisbane, the Robodebt Inquiry. Do you think it would be helpful if some of your colleagues and former colleagues, Scott Morrison, Alan Tudge, Christian Porter, Stuart Robert, appeared before that Royal Commission? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I'm sure that if they called to appear before the Royal Commission, they will. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Right. You'd be encouraging them to perhaps suggest or offer themselves up to try and get to the bottom of how the Robodebt scandal happened? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, Lisa, I can't think of any examples in the past where people have been asked to give evidence at a Royal Commission and have declined to do so. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ There's a difference between accepting an invitation and making yourself available and making that be known. **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I mean, they don't run the Royal Commission. That's a matter for the Commission. I'm not going to give the Royal Commission or any advice. I think it's an important issue. If they're asked to give evidence, I imagine that any person would give evidence. ‍ **Lisa Millar** ‍ Can I turn to another big story that we're following? That is the Voice to Parliament to have it enshrined in the Constitution. You have always been very supportive of that. What chance would a referendum have of success if your colleagues don't swing behind it? **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I think it's a premature question. Certainly we would need to see a large proportion of the liberal and conservative voting bloc to be supportive of a referendum for it to be successful. I think that in terms of the model, the words that go in the Constitution, the question is put to the people, and then the mandate of the Voice needs to be carefully set out for the people before the referendum. And I think that would maximise the chances of it getting through. Look, I think it would be a reasonable approach for the Parliament to have an inquiry into this as well. I do think there are opportunities for us to build political consensus, but we need to have a process in order to achieve that. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ But you'd be urging your colleagues, I imagine, based on what you've said previously, to try and find that consensus and be supporters rather than being roadblocks. **‍** **Senator Bragg** ‍ Well, I think it's an entirely reasonable proposition that you will consult people on laws that you make for them based on their particular profile. Now, Indigenous people are the only Australians that have a whole slew of laws made for them based on their race, effectively, and so I think we ought to consult people on those special laws at a minimum. I mean, to do otherwise is pretty illiberal. **‍** **Lisa Millar** ‍ Andrew Bragg, thanks for your company this morning. **‍** **[ENDS]** **Media contact: 02 6277 3479**