INTERVIEW WITH HAMISH MACDONALD ON ABC RADIO SYDNEY

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Subjects: Build to Rent disallowance motion, Net zero, YouTube social media ban, Protesters shutting down the Harbour Bridge

E&OE………

Hamish Macdonald

Now, the Coalition says the Federal Government's Build to Rent laws favour foreign investors and won't help Australians buy their own homes. The laws passed late last year with the building industry saying they could deliver 80,000 new rentals over the next decade. Withholding tax rates from managed investment trusts, the build long term rentals are halved under the laws and are available to foreign investors. The government, though, obviously is arguing that this is creating more of the, more of the rental accommodation that we so desperately need right here in Sydney. The Shadow Housing Minister is Senator Andrew Bragg, also from Sydney. Very good morning to you.

Senator Bragg

Hamish, how are you?

Hamish Macdonald

Very well, thank you. You're picking a fight with the government over this. Why?

Senator Bragg

Well, the government's housing record is terrible. I mean they've only built an average of 170,000 houses a year, which is down from 200,000 on average under the last Coalition Government, whilst they've presided over a massive influx of new people into our country, and they haven't been able to get the houses built. This is a very unusual priority to seek to give Australia's housing stock to foreign asset managers. So we just think it's the wrong priority.

Hamish Macdonald

But this is different to the other housing that the government is wanting. I mean, this is part of the broader target, but this is a very specific set of properties that the government wants to have built, and this is getting private money into the rental sector so that it is preserved for the rental sector.

Senator Bragg

Well, it doesn't need a tax cut. There are Build to Rent developments across Australia happening right now, and we think it's a perversion and a bizarre priority for the Commonwealth Government to say; we think that foreign fund managers should own houses that Australians can never own, while the government has presided over a collapse in housing construction, and the largest growth in our population since the '50s.

Hamish Macdonald

Doesn't the government, though, have a mandate for this? I mean, they were elected with a stonking majority, and part of the promise was to continue pushing ahead with their housing plan, some of which was held up by your side of politics and the Greens during the last term of Parliament.

Senator Bragg

Well, Hamish, we have a mandate to hold the government to account for their appalling housing policies, and this is a bizarre priority...

Hamish Macdonald

But hasn't the Australian public just voted and said: we want those policies that the government is putting forward?

Senator Bragg

Well, then that means if I take that view, then there's no point having the Senate.

Hamish Macdonald

Well, it's just whether or not you have a mandate to try and reverse elements of this policy.

Senator Bragg

Well, we think that the government's housing policy agenda should be scrutinised. We think it's a perverse priority. We want the government to work with tradies, developers, builders to understand how they can get the home building sector moving again rather than prioritising foreign fund managers and foreign sovereign investment corporations to own Australian houses. We just think it's the wrong priority, and we don't think that this tax cut should go ahead.

Hamish Macdonald

Can I ask, though, obviously, the ambition with this particular policy is to deliver 80,000 new rentals over the next decade. But parking whether or not that pace and rate is going to be met - wouldn't an argument over this just delay it further? Here in Sydney, you know in Sydney, this is pretty desperate.

Senator Bragg

It's a pimple on the elephant's bum, Hamish, because ultimately the government have failed to build the 1.2 million houses that are needed by the end of the decade. It's just not the main game. But as I say, Build to Rent housing is fine - it doesn't need a tax cut. There are dozens and dozens of Build to Rent developments across Australia, and that's fine. It's part of the mix but this is a perverse priority and a distraction. The government has been captured by vested interests, big super funds, foreign asset managers. It needs to focus on people, not corporations and we'll be looking forward to having the debate in the Senate about the government's housing record. It's an important part of our democratic institutions that we hold the government to account. I think most Australians would agree that the housing situation is getting worse every year. This is an opportunity for us to highlight this is a perverse priority.

Hamish Macdonald

In order to block this in the Senate, though, you need the support of probably the Greens. Are you talking to them about this? Are they willing to work with you to prevent this?

Senator Bragg

Yes, we'll talk to all the crossbenchers, and we will make the case that this is not the right priority, that we should be focusing on people. Those discussions are yet to be had. There won't be a vote on this disallowance this week, I think it will be in the coming sessions.

Hamish Macdonald

You're listening to Andrew Bragg, Senator Andrew Bragg - the Shadow Housing Minister. It's a quarter past 10 on 702. What do you make of the way your colleagues are reintroducing the fight over net zero into the political discussion? Do you think this is a winning approach from the Coalition.

Senator Bragg

Well, after an election last like that, you have to expect that there'll be some messiness, and there's a review into our policies, which is ongoing, and people are entitled to their position. Ultimately though, we will need to thread together a credible policy on energy and on emissions reduction, and I'm confident that we'll be able to do that.

Hamish Macdonald

How do you do that? It just seems like, obviously, you're a supporter of tackling greenhouse gas emissions. You've been on the record on those issues for some time. Where you sit on this issue seems so far apart from the likes of Barnaby Joyce and Michael McCormack. It's hard to even imagine how you get onto the same page over this.

Senator Bragg

Well, I think in the main Hamish, the global capital markets have made up their mind. I mean, there's a wall of money going to renewable investments and renewable energy. That's because over the long term, it is going to be a growing part of the energy mix. But it doesn't mean that you can't avail yourselves of all the technologies that are available. I think we want to get to a technology agnostic approach...

Hamish Macdonald

You're still interested in the nuclear stuff, are you?

Senator Bragg

Well, I don't know why we would be preventing Australia from having access to any clean energy source.

Hamish Macdonald

Andrew Bragg is here from the Coalition, Sydney-based Senator. At the moment, the Prime Minister has been standing up and announcing that YouTube is included in this under-16s social media ban. The Communications Minister, Anika Wells there taking part in this. We've been talking about it a bit this morning, a lot of complexity, particularly when it comes to YouTube and getting kids off YouTube. I know you've got kids. Do you think this is workable?

Senator Bragg

Well, we have a high level of regulation in Australia. The government put in place 5,000 new regulations last Parliament. Let's see the detail on the YouTube idea. I'm not convinced it's the right approach. YouTube is quite different to social media. We voted for...

Hamish Macdonald

Do you share that view with the tech companies that it is a different thing?

Senator Bragg

It is fundamentally different. We voted for the proposition that YouTube would not be included in the social media ban last year. We'll see what the government is putting forward, but I remain sceptical. Also, I don't think it's healthy for the country to run our lives around what the eSafety Commissioner thinks.

Hamish Macdonald

Why is that? Because I think the evidence that's been put by the eSafety Commission is that actually there's a greater proportion of the harmful content is on YouTube.

Senator Bragg

People can get harmful material from heaps of different websites. Are we going to ban every website. Are we going to start filtering the internet?

Hamish Macdonald

But I guess this is anecdotal, but I suspect most people listening would have young people in their lives. YouTube does seem to be the place where kids get lost for prolonged periods of time.

Senator Bragg

Sure, but that's up to the parents to control that. I mean, the government isn't the parent, and it can never replace the parent. I think there was a case to be made for social media. I don't understand the separate case for YouTube. We'll see what the government have to say, but from a standing start, Hamish, I have to say that I remain sceptical.

Hamish Macdonald

Do you think part of the issue here is that parents are actually finding it quite difficult to do this themselves? I think we've all been witness to arguments that have occurred between parents and kids, it's incredibly addictive. Friends of mine, I think it's fair to say, often don't quite know what their kids are looking at exactly. A lot of it seems quite weird and unfamiliar to our eyes.

Senator Bragg

Look, I agree with that. I think it is weird and unfamiliar at times. You never know what you might get on YouTube, but it's a fundamentally different proposition to what was put forward on social media, where there was the potential for bullying and other things that could happen through the school environment - whereas YouTube is about videos that people watch. It's more of a one-way interaction, if you know what I mean. We'll see what the government wants to do here, but it's a fundamentally different idea. Frankly, the precedent here does worry me a little because it does sound a little like the government wants to filter the internet. I wonder, even if it is a good idea, where do you stop?

Hamish Macdonald

But wouldn't a lot of parents say; well, maybe that's a good idea. There's some really harmful stuff on there.

Senator Bragg

But YouTube isn't the only place that people get bad material, Hamish...

Hamish Macdonald

Here's the Prime Minister a short time ago.

[Audio from Prime Minister’s Press Conference]

“Social media companies have a social responsibility. That's why today we're pleased to announce that our government is tabling rules that specify which types of online services will be captured in our world-leading laws. Importantly, following advice from the eSafety Commissioner, young people under the age of 16 will not be able to have accounts on YouTube. They will also not be able to have accounts on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, X, amongst other platforms.”

Hamish Macdonald

Senator Andrew Bragg is here. That was the Prime Minister a short time ago announcing this ban: YouTube is included in it. I guess most kids don't necessarily have a YouTube account as such. They're just using mum or dad's device...

Senator Bragg

That's right.

Hamish Macdonald

Do you have concerns about that?

Senator Bragg

I just wonder how effective all these things are. We live in a country where governments make announcements about new regulations, and then the caravan moves on, the dog's bark, and then the law enforcement is lax or non-existent. Let's see the detail but I think the more I hear about it, the more I'm sceptical that it's actually going to be an effective policy.

Hamish Macdonald

It's 22 minutes past 10. We’ve got to keep moving because we're going to check in on this new National Park being announced in the southwest of Sydney. Just curious to hear your thoughts. The Harbour Bridge protest at the weekend in support of Gaza - you're big on free speech, big on people being able to express their opinion. What's your position on this?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think the Premier is right. It's a major transport thoroughfare. People want to protest fine, but I don't think they should close down the Harbour Bridge.

Hamish Macdonald

Why, for this reason, don't close the Harbour Bridge, given that for so many other reasons it is?

Senator Bragg

When's the last time it was closed for a protest?

Hamish Macdonald

Well, I think it's been acknowledged that within the next month or so, it's going to be closed for a marathon. I think it was closed for a film being shot. It was closed for a Formula One stunt, and then the World Pride March as well.

Senator Bragg

Yeah. Well, look, if you want to have a protest, great, but I don't think we need to close the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Hamish Macdonald

Senator Andrew Bragg. Good to talk as always. Thank you very much.

[Ends]

Media Contact | David Nouri | 0401 392 624

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