Interview with Patricia Karvelas on ABC Insiders

‍Subjects: Multiculturalism, religious discrimination, One Nation preferences, minorities, AI regulation, tax, housing affordability

E&OE........

Patricia Karvelas

Andrew Bragg, welcome to Insiders.

Senator Bragg

Good morning.

Patricia Karvelas

Tony Abbott was your former Prime Minister, he's now the Liberal Party's President. He says multiculturalism has failed. Is that helpful and is he right?

Senator Bragg

Well, I don't agree with that. And I'd make the point that liberalism has actually created multiculturalism because it creates a framework for people to have freedom of religion, and freedom of thought, and freedom of conscience. And the Liberal Party built modern Australia, if you look at the Menzies government opening up after the war, the Holt government abolishing parts of the White Australia policy, and then of course Malcolm Fraser's actions to promote multiculturalism and introduce things like the SBS. So we have a very proud record to stand on, and I think it's very important that we're clear about that.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, well he's your Liberal Party President. That's a pretty inflammatory video by some people's standards. I'm sure others agree with it. Is it helpful as you try to pitch what you've just said to voters?

Senator Bragg

Well, I don't agree with those comments, and I think it's very important that as leaders in the parliamentary party, that we're clear about what multiculturalism is, and how it fits into a liberal framework, and how it fits into modern Australia. And if people have concerns about certain things in Australia, whether that be around terrorism, forced marriages, other things like that—those are things which are illegal under Australian laws, and those things are not multiculturalism.

Patricia Karvelas

They're not multiculturalism, but they're being framed as multiculturalism. Is that dangerous?

Senator Bragg

But they're very different things. The great thing about multiculturalism is that you can subscribe to the Australian nation, its laws, and its culture, but you can engage in cultural practices as well. And that is not a reflection, or in no way similar to the issues that have been flagged, which are very serious issues around where certain parts of the community have engaged in violence against other parts of the community, or have sought to do things which are illegal, such as forced marriages.

Patricia Karvelas

Would you like Tony Abbott to stop doing these things, stop saying these things?

Senator Bragg

Look, I'm not his spokesperson.

Patricia Karvelas

But he's the President of the Liberal Party, Andrew Bragg.

Senator Bragg

He's a former Prime Minister, he's entitled to his views, and I strongly disagree with them.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay. I want to move to the response from the Government on Islamophobia. They announced that yesterday. A couple of announcements out of it: the Government will review the curriculum to strengthen racial and religious tolerance. It's also committing to a research institute on Australian Muslim affairs. Do you support those things?

Senator Bragg

We've only seen the response in the last 24 hours and we're very open to it. And I make the point that unfortunately inside a multicultural society, you do sometimes see instances of wrongdoing against small parts of the community, as we saw in COVID-19 against Asian Australians. And where there are issues, they should be addressed. I make the point that the biggest issue we've seen in the last few years has been antisemitism against Jewish Australians, and that of course has warranted a Royal Commission now in the wake of the Bondi atrocity. And that of course has been the biggest part of our work in this area.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so do you think Islamophobia is a serious issue and do you support the Government broadly addressing the issue?

Senator Bragg

It is a serious issue, but I make the point that the only Australians that have to live in cages are Jewish Australians, and that's why there's a Royal Commission on the back of a massacre against Jewish Australians who were commemorating Hanukkah at Bondi Beach.

Patricia Karvelas

Pauline Hanson's been on the international stage. I know you haven't missed it. How could anyone? She says there are elements of Islam that are based on terrorism. What do you make of that?

Senator Bragg

Where people of the Muslim faith have engaged in acts of terror, they've done so on the basis of a mutation in their own mind. The very vast majority of Australian Muslims have no interest and would entirely reject the idea of taking up arms against their fellow Australian citizens.

Patricia Karvelas

And so when Pauline Hanson says things like this, do you think it makes Muslim Australians less safe?

Senator Bragg

Ah look, she'll do or say anything to tee off against minority interests. She's made a business out of teeing off against minority interests, and I think it's very regrettable. But it's free speech, it's part of our society. She's allowed to hang out with whoever she wants to hang out with on her European holiday.

Patricia Karvelas

But do you think she has questions to answer on that European holiday, who funded it, questions like that?

Senator Bragg

That's a matter for her. I'm not into this sort of tit for tat stuff really. I just make the point that a serious political party would have costed policies for the election. They have very few costed policies. As Angus has already outlined, if they were the government tomorrow the country would be even more bankrupt than we are now. And, you know, who she hangs out with and what she does in Europe is really a matter for her.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so given you think the country would be more bankrupt, how could you possibly do a preference deal with One Nation? Are you opposed to such an idea?

Senator Bragg

Well of course, I mean we will always shoot for majority government, and we reject a large part of the agendas of both the Labor Party and the One Nation party.

Patricia Karvelas

Yeah, but you've denounced Pauline Hanson's approach to minorities. Does that make her more dangerous because of those comments, and does it make you more apprehensive about doing a potential preference deal with One Nation?

Senator Bragg

Well, I'm also very apprehensive about Anthony Albanese and his Communist government, where he has introduced a 30% tax on everything. He's raised regulation to the roof, and he has governed for vested interests over these last four years.

Patricia Karvelas

But I asked you about Hanson and a preference deal.

Senator Bragg

Well, I think that they're both terrible. I think Albanese is terrible. I think Pauline Hanson is terrible.

Patricia Karvelas

Which one is more terrible?

Senator Bragg

I mean, they're both as bad as each other. It'd be a coin toss. I mean, I just think that they're both very bad. And that's why we are taking our responsibility very seriously of being a party of government that can win an election across all of Australia, because I think that people are relying on us to be our best selves and to have that very strong policy agenda that can win over the majority of Australians.

Patricia Karvelas

One more question. Hanson, Pauline Hanson says Australia is stupid for giving rights to transgender people and we should learn from the UK, and there's only men and women. You've been actually a big advocate in the Liberal Party for trans rights. What's your reaction to comments like that?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think we have to be sensible about these things. I mean, we have men and women, we have other people, and the reality is that if you want to have a free and fair society, then you don't go out of your way to make life harder for people who are in a small minority. That's always been my view, that in public life you should try and use whatever power you have to make life easier for people, not harder. Now, in terms of the trans community, it's a small community, and I just don't accept the view that Pauline Hanson expresses that it's some great risk to Australia. Where there have been issues, they should be addressed. But the idea that there's a spectre of transgender people taking over Australia, I just think is insane.

Patricia Karvelas

I want to move to AI because it's huge and it's going to change our economy and everyone's lives, it already is really. The Government has announced that it will legislate, particularly around data centres, but it's going to be broader it seems. You've warned about over-regulation. Do you support the Government's changes?

Senator Bragg

I mean, who knows what they even mean. I mean, of course everyone agrees that data centres should try and use water and power responsibly. But I mean, this is from a Prime Minister who two months ago announced the world's biggest tax on individuals and capital, with the highest taxes in the OECD now on people who are in the Pay As You Go system and through capital gains. So that's going to push away a lot of the good ideas that would have been developed in Australia inside artificial intelligence. And so I just think we're becoming a very uncompetitive country in the main on artificial intelligence. And if you want to play around with these effectively approvals, these are things that are mainly done at the local level or state level anyway.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, but the Government is going to have a sort of national COAG—well, it used to be COAG, apologies, I'm old—National Cabinet approach.

Senator Bragg

God help us.

Patricia Karvelas

Yeah, I know. So talk to me about that. Do you actually support laws which force these big data centres to actually generate their own energy and minimise water, enforceable laws?

Senator Bragg

That's fine, but everyone agrees with that. It's like saying do you want to have a sunny day. I mean, of course that's a nice concept, but if they put it inside the EPBC framework, for example, it will take eight years to get an approval like it does in Australia if you want to get an oil or gas or renewable energy project off the ground. I mean, we are a country which takes forever to get things done. Australia is closed for business under this government. We now have a very punitive tax system which is going to push away a lot of the ideas that would have been developed in Australia. I mean, we want to have the next Afterpay or the next Canva to be developed here, but even Robyn Denholm, who did the review for the government on the R&D tax offset, is saying the Government stuffed it up. So I mean, these guys couldn't run a bath on tax policy, which is the main game here in the artificial intelligence world. And I just have no confidence that they're going to be able to deliver anything that's going to be growth-accretive. You've got productivity in the toilet, you've got a very anaemic economy, very high interest rates, very high inflation. I mean, this economy is very sick, which is why people are going bananas.

Patricia Karvelas

But you're not going to stand in the way of these laws?

Senator Bragg

Sure, I mean it just doesn't make a big difference. At the end of the day, these are just nice things to have.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, well we didn't have those things though. So it is significant in that sense. In Queensland, they're not requiring—the Crisafulli government isn't saying you've got to get your own power if you want a data centre. Is that the wrong approach? Should they be required to?

Senator Bragg

I think if they can provide their own power, that's a good thing. Don't forget that the companies will want to have the highest computational capacity with the lowest environmental footprint. So using renewables, using nuclear, using whatever you can get which is clean and sustainable is going to be the main game. Now the fact that the Government have allowed our uranium to be again exported to India but are not using it for domestic purposes shows how dumb and stupid they are. I mean, they run this government based on some sort of an ideology which is mainly about shovelling out money to their best mates in the unions and the big super funds. And if you look at the policy package overall, most of it makes no sense.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay. On workers' rights, are you concerned that workers will be displaced by AI and are workers entitled to worry about that?

Senator Bragg

If you look at the history of technology, it's created more jobs than it's killed. I'm confident that there'll be a huge AI industry where people will be working in compliance and doing other things that don't exist today, that will exist tomorrow. So I think we have to be open-minded about the opportunities of AI. Of course, the idea of having data centres here in Australia is good, but I just make the point that I think we can do better than just being a base for data centres. I mean, we're already a quarry. Data centres are good, but we should be trying to have some of the next best AI companies that can be tools for business, tools for individuals. And I just fear that with the Albanese Government's terrible tax policies, with the highest CGT in the OECD, and now the highest Pay As You Go income tax system, we're not going to have these opportunities in Australia. They're going to be in Singapore or in Silicon Valley.

Patricia Karvelas

You're the Shadow Housing spokesperson. Are you prepared to go to the next election telling young Australians you're going to restore negative gearing and the Capital Gains Tax discount?

Senator Bragg

Of course, because we don't think that higher taxes will create more houses, and the problem we've had in this country is we have had not enough houses built. This Government has collapsed supply by 30,000 houses a year. Meanwhile, they have had a massive expansion in migration, and then they've had the 5% deposit scheme, which has pumped prime prices at the bottom end and made it less affordable for younger people. The main game in housing is to do whatever you can to get the houses built. And these guys are actually deliberately reducing housing supply, including like in the last session of Parliament by abolishing the ability of SMSFs to build new houses.

Patricia Karvelas

Do you think the Capital Gains Tax discount should be higher than the old 50%?

Senator Bragg

I would be looking, and we are looking for ways to reduce taxes on housing. 50% of the cost of a new house goes in government charges, taxes, and fees.

Patricia Karvelas

Yep.

Senator Bragg

So the last thing we need is a 30% CGT on housing, and winding back of incentives that...

Patricia Karvelas

But do you still, cause you've raised it before, that 50% discount, you think the discount should be higher still?

Senator Bragg

I think we should be trying to find ways to cut taxes. I would be reducing capital gains. I would be finding ways to reduce other taxes on housing because we need more of them. I mean, all you need to do is look at this Government's record. They're spending 80 billion bucks on housing to build 30,000 houses fewer a year. I mean, these guys are beyond incompetent. If I had 80 billion dollars, I would be building at least a quarter of a million houses in this country every year.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, on house prices, there was this poll that came out this week, 61% of people supported a decline in property prices. That means people are prepared for the changes we're seeing, it seems, if you look at this polling. Do you support a fall in property prices?

Senator Bragg

The main point here is that the Government have brought in 400,000 people a year over the course of their government, and they have built 30,000 houses fewer a year. Then they've unleashed the 5% deposit scheme that has pushed up prices by 20% over the course of their government. So they have really pumped prime prices, particularly in a punitive way for younger people. So I think some of that should go back to younger people, because when you look at house prices as a multiple of salaries, 15 times in Sydney for example, the prices are too high. So I think we want to be working for affordability of housing...

Patricia Karvelas

So house prices should go down?

Senator Bragg

I make the point that they have had a huge influx of migration, a huge collapse in housing supply, and then these 5% reckless deposits without means testing or price caps, and what that has meant is they have pushed up prices. They have pushed up prices, they haven't dealt with the productivity issues like the CFMEU, and so...

Patricia Karvelas

And now prices look like they're in decline. Do you support that? Do you like that you're seeing house prices on the decline?

Senator Bragg

For younger people, some of that should be returned to younger people because prices are too high in Australia for young people who are looking at in some cases 15 times a multiple of their salary to buy a first house. That is not fair, it is not reasonable. And so that's why I think our policies must be focused on affordability over the longer term, which is really about how do you get a quarter of a million houses a year built every year in this country. We used to get 200,000 houses a year under the Coalition, now we get 170,000 houses a year under Labor, despite their massive investment and Albo and Clare O'Neil bragging about how much money they're spending. Just because you spend more money on housing doesn't mean you get more of it.

Patricia Karvelas

Andrew Bragg, many thanks for joining me on a Sunday morning. Appreciate your time.

Senator Bragg

Thanks a lot, see ya.

[Ends]