Interview with Patricia Karvelas on ABC Afternoon Briefing

‍Subjects Liberal Party, Superannuation, Data Centres, Migration, Multiculturalism, Budget in Reply

E&OE.........

Patricia Karvelas

For a view from the Opposition, I want to bring in Andrew Bragg, who is the Shadow Housing and Environment Minister. Welcome to the program.

Senator Bragg

Hello.

Patricia Karvelas

Do you need to rebrand?

Senator Bragg

No, I think what is needed is a coherent set of economic policies which are revolutionary. I think people want to break the system and they're right to want that, and we have to meet that moment.

Patricia Karvelas

Do you have to break the Liberal Party though, to break the system?

Senator Bragg

No, I don't think so. I think the question is how can you thread together a really serious bunch of economic policies that is going to tip the system upside down?

Patricia Karvelas

You saw the polling out of Newspoll, Redbridge. Uh, you were a supporter of Sussan Ley's, and of course, now she's left the parliament. But are you disappointed that things are going worse than they were under her?

Senator Bragg

As I say, this is a policy business, this is not a marketing business. Uh, part of it of course is always going to be about how you communicate, but…

Patricia Karvelas

But on those figures, come on, level with me. When you saw that Newspoll, what did you think?

Senator Bragg

Oh, I'm not a commentator on polls, I never have been. Uh…

Patricia Karvelas

But polls are a judgment about the party and how it's going though?

Senator Bragg

People are angry, I get that. And I think that they are right to be. And I think that the two-party duopoly has been, in the main, good for Australia, but I'd say over the last 20 years it has not been good because there hasn't been enough policy competition. Uh, Liberal Party is part of that, and the Liberal Party should have done more to develop policies on tax, super, industrial relations, small business, but we've vacated the field. I mean, we've vacated the field for 20 years and we are now dealing with that failure, huge failure.

Patricia Karvelas

When did you vacate the field?

Senator Bragg

After 2007.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so you think from 2007…

Senator Bragg

We had no, yeah, go through it if you want. You had no IR policy after that. You had nothing…

Patricia Karvelas

Well, WorkChoices was a disaster. Labor got elected.

Senator Bragg

Yeah, we all know that, but we had…

Patricia Karvelas

But I'm saying that's what happened, right?

Senator Bragg

We've had no IR policy. You've done nothing to roll back this communist super system. You've had nothing really for small business in the main. Uh, you've done nothing to roll back the dreadful pay-as-you-go tax system which smashes ambition. I mean, you haven't done enough for your core constituents.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay. You mentioned super. Uh, the Greens are advocating for businesses to be forced to pay super to workers under the age of 18. Why shouldn't those workers get superannuation? They're working.

Senator Bragg

No, I mean, this is becoming the most repressive system in the world. I mean, I don't even think the Communist Manifesto calls for this level of superannuation.

Patricia Karvelas

Oh, come on, is it communism really?

Senator Bragg

Yeah, I think…

Patricia Karvelas

For a free market, really?

Senator Bragg

Well, people can't choose. I mean, I believe that we are in a cost of living crisis, and I believe people should have their own money and should be able to spend it on what they want to spend it on. Labor thinks people are dumb, okay? And one of the things that's going to change in politics over the next year, it's going to become more apparent, is people are over the paternalism. People are sick of being spoken to like they're children. And one of the things that I think people are going to be increasingly upset about is being told how they should run their financial affairs.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, that's, that's on the, on the kind of taxation front. You guys announced quite a big policy on taxation in the Budget Reply.

Senator Bragg

Yeah, it's a good one.

Patricia Karvelas

And you barely talk about it.

Senator Bragg

Well, we do talk about it.

Patricia Karvelas

Not really. I do this every day. You know this. Like, I pour over your words. It's kind of announced and it's sort of gone down like a—you barely talk about it.

Senator Bragg

I think it's a popular idea. I think it's the right thing to do. It also shows…

Patricia Karvelas

But why, why aren't you, why aren't you prosecuting it? Like last week you were talking about multiculturalism...

Senator Bragg

It also shows leadership. I mean, the other point here is, yes, people are unhappy about their own personal circumstances. People are also really worried about the nation. They think that we're going in the wrong direction. And they're right we are, and this is a policy that actually stops Canberra from overspending. The fact is, people are onto the politicians, okay?

Patricia Karvelas

They are.

Senator Bragg

They know, they know that every time a politician announces a new funding scheme, it's all unfunded, it's all borrowed money and, what's more, it's borrowed from the future, which is why young people are so angry with the system. And they—the anger we're seeing now actually shows that the system works.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay. You mean that, that there is a political consequence to…

Senator Bragg

Yeah, I think it's good. I think it's an opportunity to respond to the people's anger.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so you think it's good that the Liberals are now number three in the polls?

Senator Bragg

Well, I didn't say that, but I think it's a good—you're being…

Patricia Karvelas

Well, that's, that's one of the consequences.

Senator Bragg

This is as tricky as a politician.

Patricia Karvelas

I think it's a good question.

Senator Bragg

I think it's a good opportunity. I see it as an opportunity rather than a threat. I think people want more authenticity, people want more honesty, and people want detailed solutions. The way the Prime Minister talks to people is bloody offensive. Like he talks to people like they're idiots. You know, look at all his social media videos. I mean, it's all bribes and handouts. People are onto this.

Patricia Karvelas

I want to ask you a couple of questions on housing. Ed Husic has spoken this afternoon. He's an outspoken backbencher—of course now—in the government.

Senator Bragg

Yes, yeah. What's he onto now?

Patricia Karvelas

Well, it's he's been onto it for a while actually. He, he thinks this frenzy, describes it as, of data centres being built is worrying because it's taking land earmarked for homes. You're the Shadow Housing Minister, are you concerned about that?

Senator Bragg

No.

Patricia Karvelas

It's not taking money from homes? Cause in, in Victoria there was a case of it where there was land earmarked for homes, and then it was I think reported in The Age, data centre. That doesn't worry you?

Senator Bragg

One thing Australia is not short of is land.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so you don't you don't see it as an issue, even though there was that example that was of course in the papers.

Senator Bragg

I am not worried about that issue, but I do think that the data centres is a great opportunity for Australia. Uh, and what people looking for is high levels of computational power with the lowest possible environmental footprint. So, connecting these up to renewables is going to be critical, and a big opportunity for Australia given our natural endowments.

Patricia Karvelas

Just to clarify your view. Last week was dominated by discussion on multiculturalism. Do you think, do you support multiculturalism?

Senator Bragg

I do, and I grew up in a multicultural town in Northern Victoria, and I think we have been probably the most successful multicultural society in the English-speaking world.

Patricia Karvelas

Tony Abbott's your party president, as you know. And he's given a speech, and he says this in it. And I really have to read it to you to put it to you, right?

Senator Bragg

Yeah.

Patricia Karvelas

He says, "For those with a grudge against their own country, it's sustained mass migration, especially from countries with quite different cultures, that's the surest and swiftest way to change and punish a place that's irredeemably tainted by unforgivable sin. This is done in order to dilute and eventually to extinguish the Anglo-Celtic core culture." Is that what migration is?

Senator Bragg

I don't agree with that, but I would also make the point that there is a frustration in the community about some migration. There are some things about our system as a Western civilization that are non-negotiable, like freedom of speech for example. And there are other things which are not as important.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, but you don't agree with that because this, this idea of diluting Anglo-Celtic culture if you're not of Anglo-Celtic culture and an immigrant—and you know, with lots of Chinese Australians, Indian Australians, who are not Anglo-Celtic, that—is it about extinguishing the culture? What does that mean?

Senator Bragg

Well, I don't agree. I don't I don't know. You'd have to ask…

Patricia Karvelas

But he's the President of the Liberal Party and he's saying this.

Senator Bragg

Sure, but he doesn't set the policies, and I've been very clear about this, that the Parliamentary Party will set our policies. And what is very clear to me is that there is frustration with the levels of migration and maybe some of the characteristics of certain migration.

Patricia Karvelas

What does that mean, the characteristics of certain migration?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think that there is a, for example, we would never accept the idea that we'd have Sharia law, okay?

Patricia Karvelas

No, but, but…

Senator Bragg

Right?

Patricia Karvelas

That's one law. That doesn't mean you don't you block Muslims.

Senator Bragg

I didn't say that, but I'm saying that there are there are things that people would never accept as reasonably minded Australians. And then there are things that are frankly not that important. So I would say that it has been a historical fact that Australia has been able to sustain and subsume all different cultures in a harmonious way, and they're not necessarily Anglo-Celtic.

Patricia Karvelas

No. And, and when he talks about, "especially from countries with quite different cultures," do you understand why that some people hear that and they think, well, is he calling for a, a sort of culturally racially based immigration program?

Senator Bragg

Well, I'm not his spokesperson.

Patricia Karvelas

How do you hear that though?

Senator Bragg

Well, I can I can tell you that growing up in Northern Victoria, where there were a lot of people who did not come from the British Isles as first and second-generation Australians, I think would look at that and think, what the hell is that about? Uh, because they are they have built Australia as much as the people who came before them. But of course, there is a historical fact here that the British institutions have served Australia very well. That does not extend to the nature of the people that have come after the Second World War.

Patricia Karvelas

Yeah. Thank you very much for coming in.

Senator Bragg

Thank you.

Patricia Karvelas

That was Andrew Bragg, the Shadow Housing Minister, speaking to me there about the idea of the Liberal Party rebranding, superannuation, data centres, and of course, a lot more.

[Ends]