Interview with Sally Sara on ABC Radio National

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Sally Sara:

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Well, shortly you'll be hearing from our political correspondent, Tom Crowley, who's listening in, and business and economics correspondent, Lin Lin, will also be back. But staying with federal politics, Andrew Bragg is the Shadow Minister for the Environment, Housing, and Homelessness, and joins me now. Andrew Bragg, welcome back to the studio. Good to have you here.

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Senator Bragg:

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Morning, Sally. How are you?

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Sally Sara:

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Very well, thank you. You gave a wide-ranging address at the National Press Club yesterday. This is how the Minister for Housing and Homelessness, Clare O'Neil, responded.

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Clare O'Neil (recording):

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A crazed, almost manic, ideological fever dream. It was genuinely unhinged.

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Sally Sara:

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Did your own colleagues give you a better review?

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Senator Bragg:

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I mean, I feel sorry for Clare that she feels the need to say those sort of things. I mean, I think people are very frustrated about the terrible housing system, which is corrupted, has way too much tax, way too much regulation. And I wish she'd just focus on building houses. I mean, all the promises that they made about the National Construction Code, they have failed to deliver on. They've made it more complex, more expensive to build, and so I think that's what she should be focusing on.

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Sally Sara:

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Your speech yesterday, did the Opposition Leader, Angus Taylor, did he see it before it was delivered yesterday?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, of course, I talk widely with my colleagues and speeches are provided in advance in the usual way. But I thought it was important to give a detailed speech on housing, but it's very hard to disconnect the housing malaise from the nation's malaise.

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Sally Sara:

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To go back to the question, did Angus Taylor see this speech before you delivered it?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, I'm not going into personal interactions with colleagues. I don't think you would expect me to.

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Sally Sara:

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Well, I guess it's important about whether this—we heard Coalition policy yesterday, or whether we heard the world according to Andrew Bragg.

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, I think we should—we should be clear. I mean, I thought that it was important to give a detailed housing address, and I didn't think it was possible to disconnect the housing malaise from the nation's malaise. So that, in terms of the broader issues that were flagged, I mean, these are not detailed policy prescriptions, but I thought it was important, as a token of honesty, to be clear about what the direction of travel should be.

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Sally Sara:

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The reduction in net migration to less than 180,000, you say, is achievable. Is that what the Coalition wants to do, or is that your number?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, again, these are not opinions. These are just the facts around the gaps that we have. I think Angus has done a very important piece of work here by putting this migration and housing nexus clearly at the centre of our housing agenda. It's one of the key ways that we can help fix the housing crisis. Of course, migration alone isn't the only way to solve the housing crisis, as we've discussed before, but the gap, which is there because of the mismatch between migration numbers and housing supply, means that you're going to have to have a net overseas migration number in the range of 180,000 if you want to close it over the forward estimates period.

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Sally Sara:

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So, how—how do you achieve this? If we're talking about the 180,000, that would include cuts to the number of backpackers and international students. Nationals leader, Matt Canavan, said the Coalition would not cut backpackers. Do you regret freelancing on those details before they'd been settled?

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Senator Bragg:

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Look, it's something that we need to consult on, and if you go back and look at the speech, I was making it clear that this is the general direction of travel. These are just the—you need to find a way to operationalise it, and you'd need to obviously consult with industry, with the community, and also with colleagues. That's—that's clear. But I—I just think we've got to try and be clearer about where we're trying to get to here as a nation. And the Canadians, obviously, were successful in helping their housing system by cutting migration and building more houses. This is an important part of the puzzle.

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Sally Sara:

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Let's return to housing. Your idea of cutting the National Construction Code from around 2,000 pages to 80, is that a policy that's been greenlit by Shadow Cabinet?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, of course.

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Sally Sara:

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It has? That part has?

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Senator Bragg:

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Of course. I mean, I love the fascination with the Liberal and National Party's internal processes. It's very interesting. But I mean, this was in Angus Taylor's Budget Reply back in May, and we have committed to getting it to 200 pages, but we actually found a way to get it to less than 100 pages, essentially by picking up the New Zealand building code, which is about 80 pages.

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Sally Sara:

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You embraced the idea yesterday that some of the homes built under the 80-page code would need to be basic homes, perhaps without energy efficiency standards of seven stars and other amenities. Are you suggesting that to afford housing, some low-income Australians will have to accept housing that is substandard?

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Senator Bragg:

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Yes. Yes, definitely. And I think we've got to be clear there are trade-offs here. And I've been counselled not to use the term "Maslow's hierarchy" because perhaps some people don't know what that means. But I mean, if—if it's more important to have a house than to not have a house, and so given the affordability crisis we have in the housing system, we need to just build more houses.

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Sally Sara:

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ACOSS has raised concerns about people getting a house that they can't afford to run.

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Senator Bragg:

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But I mean ACOSS also wants to have a super guarantee of 30% or something. I mean, ACOSS needs to get out and talk to more people, I think.

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Sally Sara:

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You were talking yesterday about superannuation as well. Why do you think that compulsory super is not a good idea?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, because it hasn't worked. I mean, it's one of the biggest public policy failures since Federation in the sense that it hasn't helped the Budget, and it has not really helped many people get off the pension. What it has done is it has created a huge viper's nest for banks and financiers and unions to pilfer. Which is why what you saw at the Labor Party conference was, now you're going to have super for under-18s and soon you'll have super for cats and dogs.

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Sally Sara:

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What do you mean by that?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, I mean, you'll have superannuation for everything, because of course most of their policies are driven for vested interests, because they like to put their fingers into the till and pull out lots of money. And, of course, that's why they've given Wayne Swan an award for being the world's best person, even though, of course, he is the chairman of a fund that doesn't pay death benefits.

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Sally Sara:

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Do you think that the Coalition should campaign to reduce the super guarantee from 12% of wages to a lower number?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, I want to be clear that I'm sceptical about the system's capacity to deliver for the nation, but that's something that I would need to discuss with colleagues, and, you know, Tim Wilson and I over a long period of time have been sceptical about this particular policy, but it's something that we need to work through carefully.

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Sally Sara:

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So much of what you said in your speech yesterday was not Shadow Cabinet policy, or even within your portfolio. One of your colleagues told the ABC the speech was "by Bragg, for Bragg."

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Senator Bragg:

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Yeah, who said that?

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Sally Sara:

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Do you care about the principles of Shadow Cabinet solidarity?

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Senator Bragg:

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Well, who said that?

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Sally Sara:

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I can't pass that on.

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Senator Bragg:

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Ah, that's a shame. I could maybe help you with that. Well, I mean, the point—well, I mean, the point here is that we've got to be ambitious. We've got to be—the country is very sick, and so I think we've got to move the debate along into a realm of more ambition, and the—I think it's hard to disconnect the housing malaise from the nation's malaise, as I've said to you.

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Sally Sara:

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Do you think Angus Taylor is running a good policy development process, or is he subject to the same, as you described it, "madness" that occurred during some parts of the Morrison government?

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Senator Bragg:

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No, I think the internal processes are working well. I'm keen for us to be able to announce more policies, and I'm confident that that will happen in the future. But like, the whole point of being in public life is to try and get the best possible policies out there for a policy contest. And what I've been clear about is that Labor is running the country into the ground. The country's going out of business. They're running the show for vested interests. We need to be our best selves, and I'm confident that we will be over the next 18 months.

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Sally Sara:

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Andrew Bragg, thank you very much for joining me this morning in the studio.

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Senator Bragg:

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Thanks, Sally. Thanks a lot.

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Sally Sara:

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Andrew Bragg is the Shadow Minister for the Environment, Housing, and Homelessness.

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[Ends]