Interview with Laura Jayes on News24

‍Laura Jayes:

Okay, that is good news Aspen. Thank you. Long may it continue. Let's get back to the immigration debate now. Joining me now is the Shadow Housing Minister, Andrew Bragg. Andrew, great to see you. Yesterday, you went to the National Press Club. You proposed a migration number. Your leader and your Shadow Treasurer didn't endorse you. Is this Coalition policy or Andrew Bragg policy?

Senator Bragg:

Well thanks Laura. I mean effectively these are just the numbers. So if you want to close the gap between the people that Labor have allowed to come into our country through migration and housing supply, then the gap is about 350, 400,000 over their term in office. So that means that the net overseas migration number would need to be in the realm of about 180,000 to close it over the forward estimates. So that's just the numbers.

Laura Jayes:

Right, so you say the net overseas migration number would need to be 180,000 or lower if you're going to actually fulfill the policy that you announced tying migration to housing. But Angus Taylor says that number isn't settled. You're telling him, well, it is, roundabout.

Senator Bragg:

Well that's right. That's right. It's not settled. No, I mean it's—he is right. It is not settled. But the whole point of the undertaking was just to outline what the numbers actually are. And it's not a target, it's not a policy, it's just a statement of facts that that's where the numbers are if you want to use that lever to close that gap, which is—it's an important part of the puzzle here because Labor have done a terrible job on housing supply. They've collapsed housing supply by 30,000 a year, and they've had a massive surge in migration, averaging over 400,000 a year, which is more than double the average over the prior government. So the migration thing's out of whack, the housing supply thing's out of whack, it's a good lever to use, it's part of the puzzle, and those are the parameters.

Laura Jayes:

Right, so they're the parameters now, but you're saying that might change.

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean it's all based on assumptions and parameters. It depends on what timeframe you're looking at. But effectively that's where it is in terms of the stats. So, it's an important lever to use. I think it's good that we are having this as part of our housing policy. Of course the supply side is essential because you can't solve the housing crisis just by changing migration. So we have a lot of work to do. We've already announced a number of policies, but we have many more to come.

Laura Jayes:

So are you going to settle on a number? And when will that be?

Senator Bragg:

Well of course all that will be settled through the usual process and there's many months until the next election. But we are—we are getting there with policy. We've announced quite a lot. The Budget Reply was probably the most substantial Budget Reply in my lifetime and we will build on that over the coming months and year and a half.

Laura Jayes:

Do you think it will materially change between now and the next election? I mean, I can't see Labor building an enormous amount of new homes and I can't see them bringing migrants down dramatically, even though their forecast is for what, 225? So would that 180 figure you've got change dramatically in the next two years, or you think that's where you'll end up landing?

Senator Bragg:

Well it may do. Let's—let's see. I mean we've got to do the modelling before we set the final policy. But ultimately the government show no real sign of actually getting the migration into check. And certainly on the housing supply side, I mean they've had—we've got more tax, more regulation and more corruption than we've ever had in housing, which is why housing supply has collapsed. Labor have a deliberate design feature to reduce housing supply with their taxes, and now with their SMSF ban on borrowing, there'll be 16,000 fewer property transactions a year. Which is just insane. So I mean I can't believe I'm actually saying that the Government of Australia wants to have fewer houses, which of course means that affordability is lower and rents are higher.

Laura Jayes:

Well yeah, it's in their Budget Papers. Absolutely. Talking about this overall number is pretty easy. When it gets to cuts in migration and where you cut is the hard thing. You're talking about a modest reduction in working holiday makers, international students, unskilled workers. Is that right?

Senator Bragg:

Well that will all be subject to consultation with the community, with business, with colleagues of course. And that's still a work in progress. But I think the direction of travel is clear. This is a key part of our policy, but it's also important that we cut regulation along the way, and that's why we've published a new report yesterday showing how you can cut the building code from 2,000 pages to 80 pages.

Laura Jayes:

I'll get to the building code in a moment, because I love the building code. I know you want to get it to 80 pages, absolutely. But yesterday you did nominate those three areas for modest reductions. Are you saying that's not the case today?

Senator Bragg:

No, I just think you've got to find them from somewhere. That's something that we'll consult on. I know that we know need to get a lot more tradies, but we need to work out how we calibrate that in the final analysis. And that's a work in progress. And we will have this as one of our marquee policies obviously. So it's a—it's an exciting time to be involved in policy formulation.

Laura Jayes:

But where are you going to cut? Because Matt Canavan just stood up about an hour ago and said that he would not abide any cuts to backpackers. That's working holiday makers.

Senator Bragg:

Yeah well we're working on it. We've we have a long way to go until the next election. So, but the direction of travel I think should be pretty clear to your viewers.

Laura Jayes:

No, it's not. Where where will you cut?

Senator Bragg:

Well we're working—it's a work in progress. As I was pretty clear about yesterday, and I think there's a lot of consultation you need to do because these are sensitive...

Laura Jayes:

Is it easy to say that, Andrew? This is my point. Where you cut is very different. Pauline Hanson has been very clear, and she doesn't care if she upsets business and university. You certainly do. Where would you cut? Is there any easy cuts?

Senator Bragg:

I've just told you. I've answered this a number of times. We're still working on that. And we will get back to you once it's finalised.

Laura Jayes:

So you wouldn't cut backpackers?

Senator Bragg:

Well I've just said that we're working on this, and we will get back to you once it's finalised. But obviously there are a lot of wrinkles here in how you do this. It's a very complicated undertaking, which is why I was clear yesterday about this is the likely range that you need to have if you want to close the gap. And then you need to consult on how you actually do that in an operational sense.

Laura Jayes:

Family reunions?

Senator Bragg:

As I say, we'll look at all of them, and it'll be announced in due course, but it's subject to a lot of consultation because this is a finely tuned machine, the Australian migration system.

Laura Jayes:

Well if you're at 180,000, say that's the working number, Pauline Hanson is at 130. You've got a bit of a problem here on your hands, don't you? If you can't nominate one area in which you'd cut, even to get to 180.

Senator Bragg:

We're talking about two different things. The first thing is the range. So as I say, if you want to close the housing gap, which is somewhere between 350 and 400,000, you need to have a NOM somewhere in the realm of 180,000 if you wanted to close it over the forward estimates, okay? So that's the first thing. The second thing is how you actually do that, and that is something that is going to be heavily consulted on and then determined in due course.

Laura Jayes:

So there's no easy areas that you're willing to nominate today?

Senator Bragg:

That's right.

Laura Jayes:

Right. Okay. Let's talk about the construction code then. 2,000 pages, you want to get it down to 80. Would energy efficiency standards become optional?

Senator Bragg:

No, and this is the report that we've done. And I just make the point that we've been able to do more in 3 months since Angus Taylor's Budget Reply than Jim Chalmers and Clare O'Neil have done in 12 months since Mr Chalmers had his economic roundtable in the Cabinet room. So they've completely failed on this NCC. Our Basic Australian Standard will allow you to build a cheap house if you want to. If you want to have more stuff, then you can do that. The house won't be gold plated, but it won't fall down.

Laura Jayes:

Are you willing to give up some tax revenue? Because 50% of the cost of a build of a new home is state and federal government taxes.

Senator Bragg:

Well I think we'll get more houses built as a result, because house building will be cheaper. And in terms of your earlier question on energy efficiency, there'll still be basic energy efficiency. There'll be insulation and the like. And a lot of houses people live in in Australia today, like old terrace houses, would be like one star. So I think we just got to be clear that we want to get more houses built. We're desperate to see that happen. That's our priority.

Laura Jayes:

What's happened between yesterday and today, Andrew? Have you been told to pull your head in?

Senator Bragg:

What do you mean?

Laura Jayes:

Well, you just got a very different tone than you did yesterday, and you're way more cautious than you were, and I'm wondering why.

Senator Bragg:

In relation to what? In relation to what?

Laura Jayes:

The migration stuff.

Senator Bragg:

Well I think I was very clear that that's the range if you want to close the housing gap. As I said yesterday, and we will consult on how you actually do it. I'm not sure I could be any clearer.

Laura Jayes:

Have you upset some of your colleagues?

Senator Bragg:

[Audio drops out]

Laura Jayes:

Oh, we've just lost um... we've just lost your audio there, Andrew. We'll see if we can get it back. Sorry. We just couldn't hear that answer. And so so let's—

Senator Bragg:

[Audio cross-talk/errant noise]

Laura Jayes:

No, sorry. We've got some errant audio. Let's see if we can fix this just quickly. No. We've got a problem. Andrew Bragg, sounds like Kieran Gilbert right now. We will fix that as soon as we can.

[Ends]