Interview on RN Breakfast with Patricia Karvelas

Subjects: Housing Policy, Mr Costello

E&OE………

Patricia Karvelas

Senator Andrew Bragg has warned his party to reject 'NIMBYism' as the dream of Australian home ownership slips away. The federal government's signature housing policy came under more criticism this week after it was revealed that $30 million had already been spent without any housing being built. But there's also a growing debate about the Liberal Party's policy in this area as New South Wales Liberals try to block a major expansion of housing in Sydney. Andrew Bragg is a Senator for New South Wales and the Coalition Spokesman for Housing. Welcome to RN.

Senator Bragg

PK, how are you?

Patricia Karvelas

I'm great. Thanks for joining us. You're warning against 'NIMBYism'. You've called it a poison. Firstly, for our listeners who find these acronyms very confusing, how do you define 'NIMBYism', and what are you worried about?

Senator Bragg

'NIMBYism' is about blocking new supply and new development. Now, unless we build more houses, then we are going to consign young Australians to a future without home ownership. I believe it's important that the Liberal Party issue 'NIMBYism' because I think we're the only Party that can thread the needle here on housing because we're not beholden to vested interests like Labor who want to give all the houses to the super funds and the Greens who want the government to own all the houses. We can thread the needle on housing by getting the private economy and people to develop to own houses.

Patricia Karvelas

You say the Liberal Party shouldn't block the supply and development of more housing. Is that what Liberals in your home state are doing?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think it's very important that we get the right message here, that we are in favour of development, and that unless we build more houses and more density, then younger people are never going to get a go, and the Australian dream will die. It's very important that we are pro-development and that we're not captured by 'NIMBYism'.

Patricia Karvelas

And you feel like you've been captured by that now?

Senator Bragg

No, but I think there is a sense. I think that there is some discussion in some areas where you get a sense that people are not taking the long view here and are not thinking about younger people because there's an intergenerational fairness piece here. It's very simple here that in places like Sydney, unless you build the houses, then younger people will never be able to live in Sydney. Of course, you can't solve the housing crisis without building more of them, which is why I've been so critical of federal Labor's plan, which is really a plan to give the keys to the city to the big super funds rather than prioritising individual ownership.

Patricia Karvelas

We've seen housing get less and less affordable for a long period of time. This hasn't just been something that's happened in two years, as you know. It's been building and building and building, right? Has there been something fundamentally wrong with the approach of both major parties?

Senator Bragg

Well, I mean, just five or six years ago, we were building 230,000 houses, and now we're back to 170,000. Labor in Canberra has been there for two years. They've established the Housing Australia Future Fund. They've employed lots of bureaucrats. But as you said in your intro, they haven't built any houses. So, we have to be working with local government areas and the private economy and people to get the houses built. The idea that we can build bureaucracies and hope that public servants will build houses that people want to live in is just crazy.

Patricia Karvelas

You've been advocating the greater use of super savings to help first home buyers get into the market, but that's one idea, and I don't want to go into the debate on that. The big criticism of your policies so far is that you actually don't have any policies to boost supply. Why don't you have any policies about supply?

Senator Bragg

Well, we have two serious policies that will help with home ownership. One was announced by Peter Dutton in the budget in reply, which is about reducing foreign demand for Australian housing, which is very important.

Patricia Karvelas

Well, that's not about providing housing, though.

Senator Bragg

But ultimately, if you reduce the demand from foreigners for houses in Australia, then you will help solve an acute issue now. I mean, Labor is talking about building houses by 2029, but there's a major housing crisis now. So, it seems a bit cruel and strange to be talking about trying to solve a problem five years from now. So, I think that is one element. The other element, as you've referred to, is helping people with a deposit with super, and then there will be more on supply.

Patricia Karvelas

Well, there has to be more on supply, doesn't there? Isn't that the big weakness so far in your policy suite?

Senator Bragg

Well, it'll be part of an overall package, and I think you can't solve the problem without supply. Clearly, there will be a supply policy, but we've already announced two policies that will also help on housing, which I think are very important.

Patricia Karvelas

100,000 is the number that's been quoted of houses you want to free up. Is that right?

Senator Bragg

In terms of the migration policy, yes.

Patricia Karvelas

It's 100,000 houses. Because there's not a house per person. I'm just wondering how that figure was arrived at.

Senator Bragg

Well, the idea is that you reduce permanent migration down to 140,000 for the first two years. That will reduce a lot of heat that is in the market now from people who are temporary residents and people who are not Australians, frankly. There's also a ban on foreign investors and temporary residents purchasing existing houses.

Patricia Karvelas

That's tiny, though, isn't it? That's a tiny amount of people.

Senator Bragg

Well, you say that, but ultimately, if that's 5,000 people, that is 50% of Labor's only demand-side measure, which is help to buy, which is a friendless scheme where the government would own 40% of your house, which is stored in the Senate. I mean, that's one of Labor's main critiques, but it's not actually a very good one, given their only demand-side policy is held up in the Senate and looks like it's dead.

Patricia Karvelas

Well, if it's small, both are small, then you could argue, but that's the point, right?

Senator Bragg

That's one element. The main lever there is reducing permanent migration.

Patricia Karvelas

Yeah, but does it really free up 100,000 dwellings?

Senator Bragg

Well, the combination of those two measures, we believe, will free up those 100,000 houses over the next five years. Yes.

Patricia Karvelas

100,000 houses, you say, will be created, dwellings?

Senator Bragg

Or freed up.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay. I still think that some of those figures really need to be backed up with evidence, I have not seen the meaningful evidence for how you arrive at that.

Senator Bragg

Well, I mean, the government had two years in office, and their claim to build 1.2 million new houses is already cactus, according to their own advisor. So, I think our policies are much more likely to be deliverable and achievable than the government that has policies that have pie-in-the-sky numbers and are based on hiring more people to work in Canberra but actually build fewer houses.

Patricia Karvelas

I have to ask you just finally on a completely different issue, but a really big one today. Peter Costello, the former Liberal Party Federal Treasurer, one of the most senior Liberals, really, in contemporary history. The current Chairman, of course, of Nine Entertainment has been accused of assaulting a journalist from the Australian Newspaper. Is that worrying to you?

Senator Bragg

Look, I'm not going to add any comments here. It sounds like Mr Costello has one view of it and the journalist has another view of it.

Patricia Karvelas

Have you seen the video?

Senator Bragg

Look, it's unclear to me what happened. You can't see the full picture of what actually happened before and after. I will leave it to Mr Costello and the journalist to sort that out.

Patricia Karvelas

But as a principle, do you think aggressive behaviour towards journalists is appropriate?

Senator Bragg

Of course not. I don't think it's appropriate to be aggressive towards anyone.

Patricia Karvelas

I mean, journalists do their job. It just seems incredible that this happened. He's a former Liberal Party Treasurer. Surely, you're concerned.

Senator Bragg

Look, we all do our best with the jobs we've got, and it's never okay to be aggressive or to try and intimidate someone. I'm not clear what exactly happened here, so I will leave it to Mr Costello and the journalist to have a mediation or to sort it out.

Patricia Karvelas

All right. Andrew Bragg. Thank you. New South Wales Senator and Shadow Assistant Minister for Home Ownership.

[Ends]