INTERVIEW ON AFTERNOON BRIEFING WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS
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INTERVIEW ON AFTERNOON BRIEFING WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS
5 August 2025
Subjects: Productivity Roundtable, changes to company tax, negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions, Gaza humanitarian aid announcement
E&OE………
Patricia Karvelas
I want to bring in my political panel for this afternoon. Andrew Bragg, the Shadow Minister for Productivity and Housing Affordability. Josh Burns is a Labor MP and the Special Envoy for Combating Homelessness. Welcome to both of you.
Senator Bragg
Thanks.
Patricia Karvelas
Before we get into the serious and ongoing issues in the Middle East, which we will get to, but we have to talk about the economic roundtable, as it's been described. Heaps of ideas being put on the table by stakeholders and others. The big idea that was put out last week by the Productivity Commission about company tax is a really interesting idea. For our viewers who aren't across it, basically it means that businesses that are under a billion dollars, rather, would pay lower tax, and the top end of town, 500 companies, would pay a little more. Today, BHP has rebuked it. Now, they are definitely up towards the bigger end. So, I want to put it to you Josh, do you think that means that it should be just ignored, or do you think it deserves to be considered?
Josh Burns
I think the whole point of the Productivity Roundtable being led by the Treasurer is that we put ideas on the table and that we look at ways in which we can work together and build consensus and come up with ways in which we can help grow the economy and help get more out of the economy so that the work that people are doing is producing more. And if that means looking at ways to support smaller businesses or support family-run businesses in order to ensure that they can be more productive, then I think we should keep all things on the table. Just because one company says that they're not interested doesn't mean that we should take an idea off the table.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay, that's interesting. Andrew Bragg, BHP would say that, wouldn't they? I mean, it makes sense, right? Like, they're going to argue against paying more tax.
Senator Bragg
Well, I think the whole point is that we want to have a more competitive economy. So increasing taxes on the biggest businesses where a lot of Australians work doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. We want to have lower taxes, not higher taxes.We're living through a period of great disruption because of technology change. And so, the idea that we would all of a sudden increase our very, very high level of taxation on a number of companies, I don't think is a very good idea.
Patricia Karvelas
Well, I just want to stay with you because the Productivity Commission are experts. They have looked at this, modelled it. They say it would be a game changer for so many companies that earned under a billion dollars. I mean, that's a big cohort of companies, and the tax that they would pay would be dramatically lower under this proposal. So, why isn't it worth discussing then and considering if it would be such a game changer for investment?
Senator Bragg
Well, certainly, I respect the PC, but they're not the only people with a view on tax. Now, this is not the only way that you could cut taxes for small and medium businesses. I accept the argument that we need to we have more support for disruptive ideas because the very punitive tax rate that we have now for all companies over a certain threshold is very internationally uncompetitive. And so, you can look at the R&D tax offset, for example. There are other levers. This isn't the only lever. I think the idea of a redistribution of tax within the company tax system is frankly a little bit weird. And, the other point about the cash flow tax is that not many other countries do it. I mean, we don't want to have novel Australian approaches here. We want to have approaches which are internationally competitive because all the measures that we see is that Australia is falling down the league table in terms of our international position. Now, partly that's a result of more regulation, but it's also a fact that we've had very high taxes for a long time.
Patricia Karvelas
Well, some of the other ideas that have been put on the table by the ACTU in this case is are look at negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions. Josh, should they be reconsidered?
Josh Burns
Are you trying to get me in trouble, Patricia?
Patricia Karvelas
Absolutely not.I'm trying to get you engaged in the conversations our nation wants to have.
Josh Burns
Look, these conversations are being had and led by the Treasurer. He obviously is going to be the architect of the final policy design and recommendations to government and to Cabinet. I'm not going to cut across all of that. I think, as the Treasurer would say: “bring your ideas. Now's the opportunity to put them forward.”
Patricia Karvelas
I'll ask another way. Do you think that people would like your government, because I know they call your office, to revisit this issue of negative gearing?
Josh Burns
I've written about this before, Patricia. I've looked at negative gearing before, and that was also in the context of just coming out of Covid. But the biggest problem we have right now in the housing sector is supply. We need to build more homes,and there are genuine policy questions around taking off incentives for people to invest into the housing market. Would that actually, in a counter-intuitive way, actually, potentially have a negative impact on supply? These are legitimate policy questions that we have to go through. In saying that, like no point having a discussion if you don't put ideas on the table. The ACTU have done that on two policy areas that clearly have some community support behind it. I understand that community support. I think it's an entirely legitimate position to be putting forward. And I'll just let the Treasurer have a bit of oxygen and have a bit of room in order to have these conversations.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay, so does that mean you've changed your mind on negative gearing reform?
Josh Burns
I think negative gearing and capital gains are one of those taxes that you can constantly look at and see what the settings are. And I think the whole point of the Productivity Roundtable and some of the different tax arrangements is to look at what have we got and what do we need to do to improve our economy to set it up for the future. To listen to Andrew talk about basically dragging the Liberal Party so far away from being the party of standing up for the interests of small businesses is an interesting part of all of this discussion. It shows how wild and wacky some of the competing interests are. But we're genuinely interested in the views of unions, businesses, small businesses, big businesses. I'll let the Treasurer and the Finance Minister navigate a pathway through all of it.
Patricia Karvelas
Well, Andrew, you have been passionate about housing for a long time. Now you're in the more senior portfolio, you know the more junior one. Now you've gone up in the world, so you can be very honest about this stuff. I have spoken to so many of your colleagues who lament that you guys haven't been prepared to be a little more crazy, brave, brave on negative gearing, on the intergenerational issues,that you should look at these issues. Are you prepared to think about this, looking at negative gearing again?
Senator Bragg
Well, this is fast becoming the high taxes roundtable rather than Productivity Roundtable.
Patricia Karvelas
No, that's not my question. I'm asking about you and whether you're prepared to look at some of these. The young people, they're out there rioting, practically. You know this. They're frustrated. They want you all to consider these big ideas. So are you prepared to?
Senator Bragg
Well, as you know,if you increase taxes on something, you have less of it. So the idea that you increase taxes on houses is not intellectually sound. So even though there maybe an agenda from the Greens and other people who will never have to be a government, to say that changing negative gearing will result in solving the housing crisis, it's just a lie. It is just a lie. So, I wish it was that easy that you could just do a little tweak of the tax code and solve the nation's housing crisis. But the reality is that we are living through the biggest population surge since the '50s and the largest collapse in housing construction in many decades under this government. So, this is a massive supply problem, and we need to engineer our policies on the supply side. Labor's agenda to perhaps raise taxes will not solve the housing crisis.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay. Do you think there's any case for it? Well, Josh, I will let you because you want to say something, and it seems like we invited you to have a right to speak.
Senator Bragg
You wanted to talk about his high taxes roundtable.
Patricia Karvelas
I don't think he thinks of it that way.
Josh Burns
Well, I do listen to Andrew very carefully, and I listen to every one of his well-chosen words he just said. If it was just on first glance, you'd think, well, maybe the Liberal Party doesn't believe in higher taxes, especially when it comes to housing. But actually, last week in Parliament, Andrew filed in the Senate a disallowance motion to increase taxes on investors investing in the housing market for more rental properties, to increase supply for more affordable properties. For goodness sake, at the last election, if the Australian people sent a message, it was they want builders, not blockers. Well, Andrew has just blocked a tax reduction for investors to be able to build more homes. What Andrew just said would be absolutely true, except for the fact that last week, he did, along with his Liberal Party colleagues, the exact opposite.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay.
Senator Bragg
Well, obviously,the point here is that we think Australians should own houses, not foreign asset managers. That's the Labor Party's policy to support their vested interest mates. Now, we think that people should own houses, and we think,frankly, it's culturally jarring to say to the Australian people, "we've given up on home ownership for you, and the only people who can own houses are foreign corporations."
Patricia Karvelas
All right, we're going to park that because I want to talk about breaking news this afternoon that Israel is to allow gradual and controlled entry of goods into Gaza through local merchants. This is just breaking, so we don't know all of the parameters,but clearly, they are trying to accelerate the entry of food. But, Josh, does that satisfy you, or do you think there needs to be a further acceleration?
Josh Burns
Patricia, what an unbearable state of affairs this all is. The current state of the humanitarian crisis the Palestinian people are facing every day is unbearable. The waking up in the nightmare for families of hostages seeing their loved ones in videos is unbearable. The whole thing is unbearable. It shouldn't be gradual. It should be exactly what a population needs in order to have the dignity and the food security and the medicine required in order to live. Clearly, there is a problem there right now. It's not just me saying it. It's also Israeli civil society. We've had heads of the major universities, heads of the Israeli Medical Federation, Israeli voices across civil society are urging a different course because of the current situation is unbearable. I haven't seen the details of what's been announced this afternoon.
Patricia Karvelas
Let me just share it with you. The Israeli military agency that coordinates the aid says, “this aims to increase the volume of aid entering the Gaza Strip while reducing reliance on aid collection by the UN and international organisations.” That's contrary to what the government's been calling for, isn't it, Josh?
Josh Burns
Well, I mean, one thing I'm not interested in Patricia is finger-pointing on all of this by players who have the ability to increase humanitarian aid to civilians. I mean, anyone who has the ability to increase the flow of aid, whether it be Israel or the United Nations, needs to do so and needs to do so as quickly as humanly possible. There is never an acceptable usage of civilians as part of an awful war. That is not to say that Israel doesn't confront an extremely awful and difficult terrorist organisation on the other end of all of this. But that needs to be put aside as much as possible when you've got a civilian population. I know that the Jewish community and people around the world feel like it's unbearable. It's awful. No-one wants to see another human being in a position of hunger, whether it be in that part of the world or any other part of the world. I think as a basic foundation for all of us, we want to see dignity. I certainly want to see people of Gaza get exactly what they need. Obviously, there are much bigger moves happening around the world right now that hopefully are re imagining, redesigning the Middle East.
Patricia Karvelas
Well, let me just stay with you before I go to Andrew. Re imagining the Middle East. Do you support recognition to happen with a sense of urgency of Palestine?
Josh Burns
Well, yeah. I think that clearly the current status quo, Patricia, is unbearable. I found it ascinating to see countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Qatar, looking to publicly condemn Hamas to call for them to be demilitarised. I mean, all of that is looking towards some sort of extension of the Abraham Accords, where those countries would hopefully move towards normalising and recognising Israel's right to exist. Then that would come as part of the international efforts to recognise the Palestinian state. These are serious conversations,and Australia should be a part of them. Australia should have policies on the table that would hopefully re-imagine the Middle East, that would be, that would be looking to design a status quo that recognises and realises Israel's right to exist safely, and the Israelis' right to exist safely, as well as the Palestinians' right for self-determination in their own state to live safely side by side. I mean, that is what the international community is pushing for, and Australia should be a part of that.
Patricia Karvelas
And Andrew Bragg, Penny Wong said, "there won't be any Palestine left to recognise if a sense of urgency isn't applied." That's the real threat here, isn't that?
Senator Bragg
Well, it's a dreadful situation, clearly there on the ground, and we want to see aid get to the civilians. It's a desperate situation because, of course, Hamas and Iran and others have a stated aim to destroy the only Jewish state on the planet. And so there have been very forceful measures used to try and preserve that Jewish state. The ongoing issue there of the humanitarian crisis is quite separate from the recognition of future statehood. Now, Australia has a bipartisan position to support a two-state solution. But in the short term, I think this is really about trying to deal with the humanitarian disaster as opposed to the issue of statehood. Now, I think the idea that statehood will be promised or threatened, I think, is a deeply unserious concept.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay. Well, it's a deeply unserious concept in your view, but clearly other countries are doing it, too. I want to thank you both. It's been a good conversation.
Josh Burns
Thanks, Patricia.
[Ends]