Interview with Patricia Karvelas on ABC Afternoon Briefing

Patricia Karvelas

For a view from the Opposition, though, on today's broader stories, I spoke with Shadow Housing Minister Andrew Bragg a short time ago. Andrew Bragg, welcome to the program.

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Senator Bragg

Good afternoon.

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Patricia Karvelas

The government is arguing that the GDP numbers are very solid considering the circumstances. The circumstances, of course, are difficult if you look around the world, Middle East war obviously being key. If you are in government, could you really have stronger growth in the middle of a war?

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Senator Bragg

Well, the underlying factors of having low productivity and high inflation is a big part of our economic problem, because it means that really you can't get much growth before you start getting a lot of inflation. And inflation is punitive, particularly for low-income people. So the economy overall is pretty anaemic, pretty sick.

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Patricia Karvelas

Pretty anaemic, pretty sick, but business investment is up. We're seeing a lot of investment in data centres. Aren't they positive and green shoots?

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Senator Bragg

Well, what you're seeing are those underlying factors of low productivity and high inflation. So what it means is it's hard on people because you've got high inflation all the time, and high interest rates mean that ultimately people are paying more for their mortgages. If they're in a small business, they're paying more for their debt. Like, it's not a good place to be.

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Patricia Karvelas

You've got from One Nation a policy now to have two properties negatively geared only. Labor, of course, with a suite of new changes all around property. You guys are the only ones who aren't touching any of it. Do you think the system is fine? Doesn't need to be touched?

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Senator Bragg

We need more investment into housing because we need more houses to be built. That's the first point. So the idea that mum and dad investors are bad and should be chased away, but we want to have super funds as investors, is incoherent. And the idea that we don't want any investment in housing, I just think is insane. I mean...

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Patricia Karvelas

But hang on a minute, that's not the... but we need more... there is negative gearing on new properties, so that's actually in the new policy.

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Senator Bragg

Why on earth would you be fiddling around with this stuff now in a housing crisis when this government is already building 30,000 fewer houses than we were in government? We need to be getting a quarter of a million houses a year. We'll be lucky this year to get 170,000.

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Patricia Karvelas

You'd be doing it because there's a crisis among young people not being able to buy...

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Senator Bragg

But how does it help them.

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Patricia Karvelas

Hasn't it? Because they're reporting that they're turning up to auctions now and they're not competing with investors. Isn't that helping them?

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Senator Bragg

No, because they're reducing supply by 35,000. So fewer houses makes it harder to buy, harder on younger people.

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Patricia Karvelas

You don't think going to an auction now as a young person is easier?

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Senator Bragg

No, because the government's policy is incoherent, PK. I mean, they think that mum and dad investors are bad, but big super funds and government is good investment. Like, how can there be good investment and bad investment? Doesn't make any sense. Surely all investment in housing is good because we want to build more houses. But given this government has spent $80 billion to build 30,000 fewer houses a year, then maybe I shouldn't be surprised that their policies don't make sense.

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Patricia Karvelas

You said this morning you wanted to see house prices go down, do you?

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Senator Bragg

Well, I think at least by the amount that Labor have pushed them up for first home owners. I mean, the 5% deposit scheme has pushed prices up at the entry level by over 6% since October. So like, at least that should go back to people.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, so just you just that's the only change you want?

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Senator Bragg

Well, there's a few points here, right? Firstly, I think people are over the plastic politicians that say all these talking points. I mean...

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Patricia Karvelas

They are?

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Senator Bragg

Surely people understand that when young people look at a house as a multiple of their salary, they're like, "Wow, that's really expensive." So do I think house prices are too high? Yes, I do. Should they go down? They should go down at least as much as Labor's 5% deposit scheme has pushed them. I think that would be reasonable to at least give people that money back.

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Patricia Karvelas

Jim Chalmers said you'd just say anything to get your name in the newspaper and that the government is not targeting any particular price outcome in percentage terms or in dollar terms. Do you think that that 6% should be what they should go for? 6% down?

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Senator Bragg

Well, I always try and play the issue, not the person, but obviously the Treasurer can't, can't bring himself to maintain good standards. I mean, the point is that they have constrained supply, they have had a large Migration Program, and they have had these non-means-tested, uncapped 5% deposits which has pump-primed prices at the entry level.

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Patricia Karvelas

Are you worried about negative equity?

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Senator Bragg

Of course I am. So I'm trying to be as measured as I can be, whilst I'm being honest and frank about my appraisal of housing prices. I think the government have had a deliberate design policy to pump-prime prices...

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Patricia Karvelas

I don't think that's been their intention.

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Senator Bragg

Well, they must be very lazy then with their policy solutions, because if you have high migration and low supply and 5% deposit...

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Patricia Karvelas

Migration's gone down.

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Senator Bragg

Right.

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Patricia Karvelas

But it's going down, right?

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Senator Bragg

But not compared to what they inherited. It's gone up.

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Patricia Karvelas

Ah, no. In fact, they inherited a COVID era, and it was just starting to, to ratchet up. That's not accurate.

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Senator Bragg

Well, migration is up and housing supply is down over the course of their government. And then you have 5% deposits. So that trifecta has pushed up prices for young people too much, and I think we should be honest and say that is not fair.

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Patricia Karvelas

To be clear, you think there needs to be no other structural change other than actually just building houses?

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Senator Bragg

I want to build. I mean, we need a quarter of a million houses a year in Australia...

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Patricia Karvelas

So what, does the government get involved in that? How do you build?

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Senator Bragg

Well, you've got to look at the tax system. You've got to look at whether you can cut tax... I would be looking to cut taxes, right? If I was running the show, we'd be cutting taxes.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, what sort of taxes would you cut? Because, I mean, that sounds good on a billboard: "Cut taxes". What taxes?

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Senator Bragg

Well, I would look to accelerate the CGT discount.

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Patricia Karvelas

So you would create a... okay. There's the status quo, then there's the new change by Labor. You think it should...

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Senator Bragg

I would go the other... I would go the other way.

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Patricia Karvelas

You would... explain.

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Senator Bragg

Well, I mean, I would look to cut taxes in housing that is holding back the viability of getting more houses built. Now, if you talk to builders and developers, they'll say it's pretty hard to make any money out of housing in Australia, which is why the private housing system is going so badly. So I would look at all the federal taxes—company taxes and GSTs and everything else that those companies have to pay, and look at what we can do on that front. I'd also look at the CGT, and I'd look... I'd look to cut taxes. I think you need to have a supply-side revolution to get houses built in this country.

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Patricia Karvelas

That 50% discount is, of course, the Costello-Howard era discount. You would look to make that a bigger discount?

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Senator Bragg

I would look at CGT in general. I think it is retarding...

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Patricia Karvelas

Looking at it to be a bigger discount?

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Senator Bragg

Yeah, I think it is retarding home building in certain ways, yes. So those are the sort of things I'd be looking to go in as a direction of travel. I wouldn't be looking to increase taxes. I just think if you want to solve this problem, you've got to give the industry confidence that they can make money out of this, and that's how you solve the supply equation. It might not be like perfect political talking points...

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Patricia Karvelas

No…

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Senator Bragg

But that's where we've got to get to.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, that's... that would be quite controversial. I mean, we have a revenue issue... I don't care, we need to... Sure. We've got a revenue issue in this country, too. If you change the CGT actual tax arrangements, and you took even less taxation into revenue, that leaves you with a hole, doesn't it?

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Senator Bragg

If you get more houses, maybe you have more company tax collection, maybe you have higher levels of income tax collection. You'd have to look at all those things. But my point is that we're not going to build the houses we need with higher taxes. It's an insane position, and I think it's... it embarrasses me that the government thinks that they could walk in here and get away with these crazy policies and think they weren't going to be called out on them.

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Patricia Karvelas

All right, let me ask you a couple of other non-housing questions. Pauline Hanson is going to address the National Press Club in a week and a half. Your leader has not done so since becoming Opposition Leader. Is she kind of firming up as the de facto Opposition Leader in this country?

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Senator Bragg

No. Well, I mean, Tim Wilson did a speech a couple of weeks ago..

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Patricia Karvelas

He did…

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Senator Bragg

…Which was very good, I thought. I'll be doing one in August. So people can do them when they choose to.

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Patricia Karvelas

Would you like to see Angus Taylor do one?

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Senator Bragg

That's a matter for him.

Patricia Karvelas

I know, but, you know, if Pauline Hanson's doing one, and that's giving her a platform, which arguably isn't very helpful for you...

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Senator Bragg

Well, hang on, PK. Angus just did the Budget Reply, which I think even his greatest critics would say had a lot of policy in it, a lot of considered ideas, and I think we're very pleased that he did that speech. And like, that's probably the most substantial Budget Reply speech I've seen in a long time.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay. Members of the Coalition are pushing for this private member's bill for changes to the Sex Discrimination Act to enshrine definitions of a man and a woman. You have been on the record for a long time as supporting transgender Australians. Are you worried about this?

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Senator Bragg

Look, I stand by all my prior statements about protecting all groups in Australia. I think it's important that we remember we're a live-and-let-live country, and the differences should be respected. And if people want to push through a private senator's bill, that's a matter for them.

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Patricia Karvelas

So do you see it as Liberal Party policy to change the Sex Discrimination Act or just, as you said, a private member's, private conscience issue?

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Senator Bragg

Well, the leader has been clear that we would protect all the existing protections that are there for...

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Patricia Karvelas

It's not possible to protect the existing protections, which mean that if you identify as a trans woman, you can use a female bathroom, for instance, and also have this new definition. It's not... they're at odds.

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Senator Bragg

Well, as you know, these are very complicated issues, and there are different scenarios which can play out here. I am open-minded to proposals people have to add additional rights, as long as we preserve the existing rights. I know you're going to say there's going to be a clash of rights...

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Patricia Karvelas

Well, there is.

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Senator Bragg

So let's... let's see what it looks like. I mean, right now I haven't seen anything that convinces me that that can be achieved, but let's see.

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Patricia Karvelas

Yeah, I mean, I can't... I... I approach this with logic. If you give one group a bunch of rights and then the other group keeps the rights, they're in conflict. It's not legally possible, is it?

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Senator Bragg

Let's see how it works.

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Patricia Karvelas

Did it go through Shadow Cabinet?

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Senator Bragg

Which one, the Private...

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Patricia Karvelas

Changing the Sex Discrimination Act.

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Senator Bragg

Private Senators' Bills or Private Members' Bills are a matter for individuals that let us notify the Party Room. That happened, and that's a matter for the Member for Lyne.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, but you don't see it, just to be crystal clear, as official Liberal Party policy to change the Sex Discrimination Act?

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Senator Bragg

That Bill is not our party's policy.

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Patricia Karvelas

But yet, your Leader is pushing it.

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Senator Bragg

No, there's been a commitment made, which is not that Bill, so we will work through that as a Shadow Cabinet.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, but you're very concerned about it.

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Senator Bragg

Well, as I said, I'm open minded but I’m obviously conscious that it’s important that we protect the existing rights, but also that we’re sensible. So I’m open minded and I will work through that with my colleagues.

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Patricia Karvelas

Okay, thank you for joining me.

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Senator Bragg

No worries, thank you.

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