Interview with Mark Levy on 2GB Mornings

Senator Andrew Bragg

Shadow Minister for Housing and Homelessness

Shadow Minister for Productivity and Deregulation

Liberal Senator for New South Wales

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH MARK LEVY ON 2GB MORNINGS

18 November 2025

Subjects: First home price increases, immigration, climate policy

E&OE………

Mark Levy

Well, I thought we'd just step over to housing for a moment because there's some new data today from Cotality showing that house prices are increasing more quickly at the lower end of the market than at the top. Basically, the cost of properties that first home buyers can afford: they're going up. Dwellings with values below the government's expanded first home guarantee scheme rose by 1.2% nationally, which was more than the average across the wider property market. That's despite the government saying that the expanded scheme would not disproportionately increase prices. I thought we'd catch up with the Shadow Housing Minister, Andrew Bragg. He's been good enough to join us on the line. Andrew, good morning to you.

Senator Bragg

G'day, Mark. How are you?

Mark Levy

Mate, I'm very well, thank you, mate. Just correct me if I'm wrong here, right? In short, cost of houses for first home buyers is going up, and it's doing so in part due to increased competition caused by this first home buyer scheme. Is that right?

Senator Bragg

It's hard to believe, but yes. Effectively, the government has not built enough houses, and so they've opened up this five percent deposit scheme to anyone, anyone at all. That's brought forward demand, and it's shooting up the house prices at the entry-level point of the market. So, if you look at the data, what it shows you is the most expensive houses aren't changing in prices, but the entry-level houses are.

Mark Levy

So, wasn't the whole point of what the government's doing, trying to get more people in the housing market?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think it's a gimmick, Mark. It's one of their gimmicks. We warned against doing this, but they're rushing through without any parliamentary oversight or review. And now we're stuck with this policy for the next two and a half years, and it's just going to push first home ownership further and further away. So, it's just crazy.

Mark Levy

Do you feel for younger Australians who keep being given a false sense of hope? The Australian dream is to one day own a home. If you listen to the government, you're probably thinking to yourself, oh, jeez, all right, I'm going to be in a great position to actually buy myself a place. I've got all my savings ready to go. But when you go along to open homes or you look at the prices, they're going up and up and up, which effectively is pricing you out of the market.

Senator Bragg

Well, the government didn't bother to model the impact of their changes until after they announced it. So, they announced this change in May, where they opened it up, including to the children of billionaires, and they got Treasury to model it in July. They said that it would increase prices by 0.6% over six years. But the data you quoted just before, Mark, actually shows that that has already been achieved in one month. In fact, double that in one month. So, what you've seen is a 1.2% increase in one month, the month of October. So that is just going to make it so much harder for these first home buyers to ever access that entry-level first house. And in a place like Sydney, where we are, it's likely to be a one or two bedroom apartment, which is now 1.2% dearer in just one month.

Mark Levy

Well, good luck in the Eastern Suburbs. It showed the biggest difference in growth in New South Wales, with homes below the caps outperforming those above the caps by 92 basis points.

Senator Bragg

Yeah. Look, the only way out of this crisis is to build more. I mean, you can talk about all the different inputs. You can talk about demand side measures, whether it be the migration settings or whether you talk about these programmes the government have, or first home buy grants, or whatever. But ultimately, the only way out of this housing crisis is to build more. And the government are spending $60 billion to build fewer houses than were achieved under the last government. So that is really the pain point. Not enough houses have been built.

Mark Levy

Well, just on that, you open the door on the whole migration issue. And there's a story today suggesting that the Liberals, in particular, are keen on bringing down net overseas migration by about 100,000. Is that something you support, Andrew?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think migration is too high, but the changes to migration won't solve the housing crisis. I mean, the biggest link between housing and migration is actually the fact that we don't have enough foreign tradies because the CFMEU don't let the Labor Party bring in enough foreign tradies. Sure, look, it's one demand-side measure, Mark. It's one demand side factor, I should say. But that is not going to solve the housing crisis. If you wear migration down to zero tomorrow, you’d still be left with a thumping housing crisis.

Mark Levy

It's one of those things, isn't it? What we need is skilled workers. We need the people to be able to build them. I suppose now that you've got the whole net zero thing out of the way, you're going to have to settle on an immigration policy. How long is that going to take, Andrew? Not another six months.

Senator Bragg

Well, I think it'll be okay because I think in general, most people accept that the Labor Party have done a bad job managing the migration system. But we do want to have a sensible debate. I mean, anyone who says that changes to migration is going to solve the housing crisis is not being genuine because it's one factor. But I think we'll be able to land something sensible. Paul Scarr and Jonathon Duniam are doing some work on this. Ultimately, one outcome I want to see, as the Shadow Housing Minister, is we want to see visas for foreign tradies because we don't want to let the CFMEU run the migration system.

Mark Levy

I got to ask you about net zero. Now that the position has been taken by the Coalition, everyone's agreed, you're one of the moderates within the party. How do you feel about the whole thing?

Senator Bragg

I'm not so sure about all these labels that get bandied around. But look, I think my views are well known. I think it's important that we have a credible position on decarbonization, but I also accept the power prices are way too high. So, we want to have that technology agnostic approach. And I think one of the most important parts of the policy we have is a commitment to the Paris Agreement, which requires us to set targets. And the Paris Agreement doesn't allow you to backtrack on the commitments made already as part of that treaty process. So, I look forward to us setting ambitious Emissions Reduction Targets. I think that's really important because we are a country that's really…

Mark Levy

You don't sound too happy, Andrew.

Senator Bragg

Well, I'm just saying this is part of the policy. We're in the Paris Agreement. That was important to me that we were part of the Paris Agreement, and decarbonization is important as is getting power prices down. So there are different parts of this policy. There's a commitment to technology agnostic approaches, but there's also a commitment to getting carbon emissions down. That is going to be done through the Paris Agreement. And as I say, I think it's going to enforce some important discipline on the Liberal party because you're not able to backtrack on the emissions target.

Mark Levy

Just explain something to me, right? Because there's this adage out there at the moment that while the Liberals are ditching net zero, they're still a part of the Paris Agreement, and under the Paris Agreement, there's a suggestion that, well, net zero needs to be achieved by 2050. So how would you answer that in terms of - okay, well, the Liberals are ditching net zero, but they're still a part of Paris. And under Paris, you've got to reach net zero by 2050. What's your response to that?

Senator Bragg

I don't understand the language of ditching net zero. I mean, the net zero is the outcome of the Paris Agreement…

Mark Levy

But you're not signed up to a net zero target. That's been made clear by Sussan Ley.

Senator Bragg

Let me just step through it. The Paris Agreement seeks carbon neutrality over the course of this century, right, and we're in that agreement. So that's our objective over the course of this century, but we're also seeking to get power prices down. That's very important for the Australian people. But we are seeking emissions reduction over the course of this century. And so that's why, as our statement said last week, that net zero would be an outcome of our work. If it wasn't, then you wouldn't be in the Paris Agreement. I just think it's important that people look at the sum of the parts. Clearly, we want to get prices down. We think the government has done a bad job, but the main point here is that it's been the government's energy policies that have created this huge mess here, not the fact that Australia has been part of an international agreement to try and get emissions down, because we actually all care about this planet, and we're all trying to work together to get emissions down - now, it's complex because you do have countries like China and India that are not going to be pursuing net zero 2050. They're pursuing it later in the century. It's important that we don't undermine our own economy and I think that's what, we're trying to get the balance right, Mark.

Mark Levy

To be honest, I think everybody's sick and tired of hearing about the whole thing. But anyway, we'll move on to other things. You all get down to Canberra right next week, last sitting week of the year. Is Sussan Ley sweet? There's no chance she might be ousted as it's just you and me talking, Andrew, now. There's no chance that Sussan Ley could be ousted as leader?

Senator Bragg

I think it'll be fine. It's been a tough time to be the leader of the Liberal Party after the worst result we've ever had. Look, I thought this first year or so was going to be messy. Having a policy debate or two is not a bad thing. I would think that democracy would probably be healthier if other parties were also as open as we were, because what's wrong with having a policy debate?

Mark Levy

When you send your Christmas card to the Liberal leader's office, who are you addressing that to for Christmas Day?

Senator Bragg

Well, look, I'm a cultural Christian, Mark, and I do engage in all these Christmas things, but I have to admit that I've stopped sending Christmas cards.

Mark Levy

Okay, well, hypothetically….

Senator Bragg

I think now it's just an email.

Mark Levy

Well, now I'm going to ask the follow-up. Hypothetically, if you're sitting down and writing a little note to the Liberal leader's office, are you addressing it to Sussan Ley, to Andrew Hastie, to Angus Taylor. What names on the card?

Senator Bragg

Well, I just said to you, Sussan will be the leader. It's been a tough time to be in that job, and I'm confident that she'll be in that job by Christmas time and beyond. I'm just interested in the-

Mark Levy

Jeez, I tell you what, Andrew, I love politicians. That's a pretty direct question. I'm going to address it to Sussan Ley. Anyway, that's enough of that. I do want to ask you one more on the whole leadership thing and everything else, right? You're a good bloke, and I like talking to you. This suggestion that the moderates have turned on Sussan Ley and now support Andrew Hastie. I want to ask you this question. It seems to me, and I have Andrew Hastie on this programme regularly. Now, Andrew Hastie is a conservative, and on some issues, he's vehemently opposed to the position that the moderates take. I'm a little surprised that the moderates are now backing Andrew Hastie. What do you say to that?

Senator Bragg

Well, Mark, don't believe everything you read in the paper. That story yesterday was wrong: it's incorrect. But people write all sorts of different things, and people get things wrong, and that's part of being in politics. But I'm supporting Sussan. We're supporting Sussan. As I said to you, it's been a really crap time to be the leader, I don't think anyone thought it was going to be easy after a cataclysmic defeat like that. I don't think many people expected us to have such a whopping defeat as we had under Peter.

Mark Levy

All right. Fantastic. Well, Andrew, I thank you for sharing us some time. It's going to make for an interesting week next week. Last sitting week of the year, and then you can get Christmas organised and have a couple of drinks and enjoy yourselves. Thanks so much for joining us, mate. We'll talk soon.

Senator Bragg

Thanks, mate. See you, bye.

Mark Levy

There he is, Andrew Bragg, Shadow Housing Minister, joining us from Sydney.

[Ends]