Interview with Patricia Karvelas on ABC Afternoon Briefing

‍Subjects: Capital Gains Tax; Housing; Immigration; ISIS brides; Artificial Intelligence; Liberal Party reshuffle; Environment policy

E&OE………

Patricia Karvelas

Andrew Bragg, welcome to the program.

Senator Bragg

PK.

Patricia Karvelas

Now we are speaking to you on a break from this Capital Gains Tax Discount Inquiry. Has anything you've heard changed your mind about changing how that currently works?

Senator Bragg

Well the evidence that's been presented to the Senate is that increasing taxes or reducing concessions will not build any more houses, and Australia is in the midst of a massive supply crisis under this government where they have collapsed housing completions from an average of 200,000 a year down to 170,000 a year. So that needs to be the focus, building more houses, not more taxes.

Patricia Karvelas

Okay, but that's not the evidence that you've heard today. Bernie Fraser, who of course was the Governor of the RBA, has told that Senate Committee, that you're part of, that the discount should be basically abolished. So, there are actually strong views being expressed in that Committee that it needs to go.

Senator Bragg

Well I asked Mr Fraser about his views on the supply equation and he talked about a range of different factors. So, I'm not sure that's necessarily exactly what he said, I think he's advocating a particular course of action. But of course one of the problems here is that the government want to reduce concessions, it seems, for mum and dad investors, but they want to help their mates at the super funds become massive landlords. And that is not the Australian way. I think most Australians would accept that it's not a bad thing that Australians rent to other Australians. I don't think Australians want to be renting their house from a super fund.

Patricia Karvelas

Yeah, just on the broader tax settings and broader settings for all housing, obviously this Senate Committee has been really focused on the Capital Gains Tax, but more broadly, I mean you've always been of the thought that you need to do lots of things to try and activate this space. Do you have an open mind when it comes to taxation to really change the way home ownership works in this country?

Senator Bragg

Well, unfortunately almost half the cost of building a new house goes in taxes and government charges and regulation, so like the last thing we should be doing is lumping more tax. So I have an open mind about almost everything, but I just don't see how you could get one new house out of a new tax.

Patricia Karvelas

I want to change the topic if we can. Josh Frydenberg spoke at the Aspire Conference today and he says, and I quote, 'I do believe we need to move to an immigration policy which does discriminate.' Then he goes on to say, 'discriminates on the basis of what's in the national interest and the way we answer that question is with new standards and that may be based on the countries that people come from.' Do you agree that that's the direction we should move to?

Senator Bragg

I think we should maintain the long-standing Australian principle which stretches back to the Holt Government after it dismantled the White Australia Policy – that we should not discriminate against any particular ethnicity or country. But we should strongly discriminate on the basis of capacity to contribute and alignment with overall Australian values.

Patricia Karvelas

Ok, so you disagree that we should discriminate against a country though, like listing countries or hotspots, all of these ideas, you think they're bad ideas?

Senator Bragg

I just don't see how it's consistent with our pluralist approach and our long-standing principle of non-discrimination. I just don't see how you can do both things.

Patricia Karvelas

And at the moment, there are people pushing for that approach and for the Liberal Party to adopt that approach. You'd agree with that?

Senator Bragg

I think there are many opportunities for us to reign in migration and to get a better deal for Australia, but I'm unconvinced that running particular countries off the map so to speak is going to help us.

Patricia Karvelas

What is the risk if we are to do that?

Senator Bragg

Well I just don't think that it's the right approach morally but also economically. I mean if someone can contribute, why wouldn't we take them? I mean one of the issues we have is that we need to build a lot of houses, but we don't have many people coming in under building visas, you know tradies, chippies, whatever. We have a lot of other people coming in or maybe overstaying. So we need to recalibrate that.

Patricia Karvelas

I just want to sort of pivot and it's kind of adjacent in some ways to the ISIS brides issue that's been very much discussed in the last couple of weeks. Jamal Rifi is the doctor that's been trying to help. He's given an interview to the Nine Papers, he says the government's language has made it extremely difficult for the cohort to return. He says the biggest obstacle is the Prime Minister's statements specifically and that the Syrian side is asking if he doesn't want them, we don't have anything from them, why should we help them. Doesn't that prove that the government has actually been doing exactly what the Coalition's been calling for and that's making it very difficult for these women to return?

Senator Bragg

Well let's see. Our view is that they should not be able to return, that those families have made judgments to undermine Australian values and if they were naturalized citizens then they have certainly not acted in accordance with the oath they took at their citizenship ceremonies. And so they have therefore forfeited their right to enter Australia. And so we think that it's important that the government go out of their way to protect the rest of the Australian community.

Patricia Karvelas

And so you say let's wait, well the evidence is pretty clear isn't it, that the movement of these women and their children isn't happening because the government has been so hardline.

Senator Bragg

Well let's hope so. Let's hope so because it's not a reasonable thing to impose on the community that they should have to live door to door or nearby people who have made a judgment to go and fight with ISIS against the civilized world.

Patricia Karvelas

What do you make then of these Premiers, we've got the New South Wales Premier, you're in Sydney so that's the Premier in your jurisdiction, also of course the South Australian Premier talking about if they are to come home, their children should be educated. Do you agree with the spirit of what they're saying?

Senator Bragg

No I don't. I think that you have to draw the line somewhere and these families have made a judgment to repudiate the promises that they made at citizenship ceremonies. If they were naturalized, or if they were born Australians then they have completely undermined this country by going and working for organisations which are against humanity.

Patricia Karvelas

Just on another topic that very much pertains to a lot of the work you've been doing. The Minister for the Digital Economy Andrew Charlton gave a speech today. He's talked about AI, of course artificial intelligence is creeping its way into all of our lives even if we're not noticing it, and how Australia needs to own and make a lot of the technology itself to ensure the benefits stay on shore. Do you endorse that approach?

Senator Bragg

Well let's see. I mean the great AI race is between the United States and China in terms of the development of the technology. The role for Australia here is making sure that we can adapt to that. And I think the job for the government is getting out of the way because last year 85% of all the jobs created in Australia were non-market sector jobs and the private economy is dying here in Australia. Of course, the government is doing too many things, spending too much money, raising too much debt and looking at too many taxes. So the test will be can they get out of the way and let the real economy be the real economy?

Patricia Karvelas

Now in the reshuffle, you actually got a new job which is also to be environment spokesperson on top of your existing role talking about home ownership and so forth. Just on that, I mean you are a key moderate, you backed Sussan Ley right through to the end. Does that show in your view that Angus Taylor is kind of open to moderates because others were dumped?

Senator Bragg

Look I'm not so sure about all these labels that get bandied around – but certainly I'm pleased to be working with Angus in the Shadow Ministry. I think there's a lot of opportunities for us in the environment portfolio as well as housing. And our job is to give Australians the opposition they deserve, which is one that holds the government to account but actually develops alternative policies. So we have to work very hard and I'm looking forward to working very hard with my colleagues because that's the job.

Patricia Karvelas

On the environment portfolio, I spoke on Four Corners to one of your colleagues, Andrew McLachlan, who's really worried about your environment credentials as a party, and the way particularly younger people view the party on these key issues. Is it your view that the party really needs to repair its perception and its policy offering on the environment, on climate emissions reduction?

Senator Bragg

Yes I do. I think Andrew has made a number of good points along the way and we have to make sure that we have something to say about the environment which presents us as stewards for future generations. But equally we have to make sure that we have an energy policy which can actually maintain industry onshore whilst looking to the future. So, I don't think these things are beyond our capacity. I'm confident we can work with colleagues to develop these policies over the next year or so.

Patricia Karvelas

Have to ask you finally, and it goes to that reshuffle concept, but the original story which was Sussan Ley and how she was treated. The Prime Minister says she was very shabbily treated by men in your party. Is the Prime Minister right?

Senator Bragg

The Prime Minister is a consummate politician. I mean he'll make all these points no doubt. But look, we've had a democratic process…

Patricia Karvelas

But sometimes he can say something and it can be right?

Senator Bragg

We've had a democratic process that's been resolved. We've got to get on with the job. I mean we owe it to the Australian people to be a better opposition. I mean the government is wrecking the economy, they've wrecked the budget, we've got to hold this government to account and we have to offer up credible, costed, detailed solutions. And as we head into the second year of this term, that's becoming an urgent task.

Patricia Karvelas

Thank you so much for joining us Andrew Bragg.

Senator Bragg

Thanks PK.

[Ends]