Interview with Hamish Macdonald on ABC Sydney

29 October 2025

Subjects: Anti-Semitism, Housing Australia Future Fund, Super Funds, Australia-US Relations

E&OE………

Hamish Macdonald

Senator Bragg is here this morning. Good morning to you.

Senator Bragg

Hamish, good morning.

Hamish Macdonald

Can I just ask you about this Joy Division T-shirt to begin with? Do you really think the Prime Minister needs to apologise for this?

Senator Bragg

Well, Hamish, as you know, there's been an anti-Semitism crisis in Australia under this government, and the Prime Minister should be careful that the attire that he dons is appropriate.

Hamish Macdonald

But do you really think that he was wearing this because of some deep-seeded anti-Semitic views or support for anti-Semitic views?

Senator Bragg

No, I'm not here to second guess why he wore it. I'm just saying that there are members of the Jewish community which have been under enormous pressure for the past couple of years that have been offended.And so, the Prime Minister should be careful with the attire that he wears.

Hamish Macdonald

Does it say something about the Opposition that it's needing to pick an argument over this? I mean, aren't there more substantive matters at hand for the Prime Minister who's in Malaysia meeting with ASEAN leaders; he's going to the APEC summit? I mean, this is pretty important stuff for the nation.

Senator Bragg

Antisemitism has been a scourge, and it's been a disgrace in Australia over the last couple of years…

Hamish Macdonald

Unquestionably…

Senator Bragg

I've been embarrassed to be an Australian at times…

Hamish Macdonald

But this is a question about whether this is a genuine political argument because as far as I'm aware, the Prime Minister said nothing about any connection to anti-Semitism with this band or this T-shirt, he just likes the band.

Senator Bragg

As you know, the name of the band is offensive to some people because it refers to World War II-era undertakings. I just repeat myearlier answer that he should reflect carefully on what he wears as the PrimeMinister of Australia and as Australia's major ambassador.

Hamish Macdonald

Do you think he needs to apologise like your leader does?

Senator Bragg

I just think he should reflect on whether he's wearing the right attire as a Prime Minister.

Hamish Macdonald

But not apologise, necessarily.

Senator Bragg

Well, it's a matter for him. I don't think he should wear the T-shirt. This has been a very serious crisis. Jewish Australians a releaving Australia because they don't feel safe. That's the point.

Hamish Macdonald

Andrew Bragg is here, the Shadow Housing Minister. We invited you on this morning to discuss the HAFF, as it's known. How many home shave been built under this scheme?

Senator Bragg

That's a very good question. I believe the answer is that the Housing Australia Future Fund, which has $10 billion and has been running for two years, may have built a few hundred houses. But those houses, I believe, have been purchased, not built.

Hamish Macdonald

The ABC reporter, Tom Crowley, is reporting that not one home has actually been built, that the only homes delivered under the HAFF have been acquired. What does that say to you about the success or otherwise of this scheme?

Senator Bragg

Well, it's not going well, is it? I mean, who could believe that you could run a scheme for two years with $10 billion and not build any houses, and the only houses you have in your kitty are the ones that you've actually purchased, so therefore, you're competing in the market and making the housing problem worse. The main problem here with housing is that there's been a huge failure of supply, a failure to get the houses built across the economy, but also the government's scheme here, as we've canvassed, has been a huge failure.

Hamish Macdonald

The Auditor-General will be investigating the role that Treasury has played in designing the scheme. Is there anything actually unusual about that? I thought the Auditor-General did this all the time.

Senator Bragg

Well, the problem here is that Jim Chalmers theTreasurer had a whole lot of meetings with the big super funds back in2022/2023, and they were involved with designing the way that the HousingAustralia Future Fund was going to make payments. Now, lo and behold, whenRound One tender of the HAFF came through, the biggest beneficiaries were thebig super funds. They got $2.8 billion in payments from the Commonwealth, so I think that there is an integrity issue here, which may be one for the NationalAnti-Corruption Commission. But in the immediate term, it goes to the quality of spend and how the payments have been designed, because in some cases, as theABC has canvassed, the cost the taxpayer is needing to face here is very significant. The average build cost for a new house in Australia is going to beabout $450,000. But in some cases, the HAFF is paying $1.2, $1.3 million per dwelling.

Hamish Macdonald

Can I just clarify? What are you saying might be one for National Anti-Corruption Commission?

Senator Bragg

Well, I mean, if there has been a whole bunch of secret meetings between major investors and the Treasurer and the Treasury andHousing Australia, and lo and behold, those same people end up getting all the taxpayer funds, then I think that there are questions to be answered here.

Hamish Macdonald

I mean, it would be a big leap, though, to say that this is actually corruption.

Senator Bragg

We can't get to the bottom of it because the government, as you know, the Centre for Public Integrity has found this is the most secretive government since the Keating Government. They block our FOIs, they don't comply with Orders of the Senate, so when we receive back Orders of the Senate or FOIs, everything is blacked out, so it's very hard to see what's actually happened in these meetings. But I do believe that there were a significant number of meetings between the Treasurer, the Treasury, HousingAustralia and the super funds, who have ended up getting most of the taxpayer funds.

Hamish Macdonald

Are you referring it to the National Anti-CorruptionCommission?

Senator Bragg

I think we will. Yeah, I think we will, because we can't get to the bottom of things because this government has trampled on the democratic processes that we've been accustomed to. And as you know, the Centre for Public Integrity and other people who, frankly, haven't always been the best friends of the Coalition or Liberal Party have been making the point that the government now wants to gut the FOI laws. We have to use the institutions that are left standing to get to the bottom of these things. Our job as an Opposition is to make sure the taxpayers’ funds are being protected.

Hamish Macdonald

Senator Andrew Bragg is here, the Shadow HousingMinister, telling us this morning that he thinks the Opposition will refer thisto the National Anti-Corruption Commission. I wanted to ask you about superfunds more explicitly. Kevin Rudd is back in Australia, the Ambassador to theUS. He's been walking the corridors of Parliament House last night. The media did manage to get a question or two to him. This is what he had to say.

[Start Excerpt]

Kevin Rudd

How are you all? How are you, mate? Haven't seen you for a while. It's good to be back in Canberra. I'm here with the TradeMinister. We're speaking to a gathering of Australian business who want to do a lot of business investment and trade with the United States. That's what we're here to do.

Interviewer

Is it good to have patch things up with PresidentTrump?

Kevin Rudd

You know what I think is that the Prime Minister had an excellent meeting with the President of the United States, and we're here todo a job.

Interviewer

Is it good to have patched things up with him, Mr.Rudd?

[End Excerpt]

Hamish Macdonald

That is Kevin Rudd talking to the media in fairly chaotic scenes in Parliament House overnight. He'll be in Sydney tomorrow for aNew South Wales Government Investment Summit. He'll interview, that's the description, Billionaire Private Equity Executive, Stephen Schwarzman, who'll be appearing via video link, and then later in the day, he'll share the stage with the State Treasurer, Daniel Mookhey. What's your view of the way in whichAustralian super funds are being discussed in the context of our geopolitical relationships with the United States?

Senator Bragg

Look, as you know, I've been a critic of this system for some time, but I honestly think that if the funds can get the best returnso ffshore, then they should be allowed to do that. I'm not a nativist. I'm not into protectionism or subsidies, and I don't think that directed investment or forcing the funds to invest into certain things at home is the way to go. I think if they can get good returns in the US, they should be free to do it.

Hamish Macdonald

But for it to be discussed at the negotiating table around a bunch of other issues that are pretty hairy, like national security, like AUKUS, is that appropriate?

Senator Bragg

Look, it's all a bit weird, Hamish, but as you know, this is Wayne Swan and all the other people, they're on the boards of all these funds. They run them all. Nicola Roxon and the former Deputy Premier from Victoria, they're all on the boards of these super funds. I guess the LaborParty feel that they can get them to bend to their will, I don't know, it's a question for them. But if you're asking me about whether the funds should be able to invest offshore, I believe they should be able to invest to get the best possible return.

Hamish Macdonald

I guess some listeners have contacted us over the last week since this became part of the conversation with Donald Trump at the WhiteHouse to say, 'Well, I'm not sure I'm that comfortable with the way this is all being done.' Who can they ask? Who can a concerned super investor talk to?

Senator Bragg

Well, there's a lot of things they can do. I mean, firstly, they don't have to stay with their super fund. They can move to a different fund if they want to. If they have integrity or governance concerns, they should get in touch with me directly at senator.bragg@aph.gov.au. We will ask the prudential regulator, APRA, if there are any governance or integrity or investment issues, that's the sort of democratic oversight we still have inAustralia, and I think that may be one of the best avenues.

Hamish Macdonald

Andrew Bragg. Thank you for your time this morning.

Senator Bragg

Thanks, Hamish.