Interview with Tom Elliott 3AW Mornings

Subjects: Superannuation, home ownership in retirement, super fund governance, nation-building infrastructure investment.

E&OE....

Tom Elliott:

Our next guest, Federal Shadow Minister for Housing and Homelessness, Andrew Bragg. Good morning.

Senator Bragg:

G'day Tom, how are you?

Tom Elliott:

Well, I'm good, thank you. Thank you for joining us. So, what do you think the essential purpose of super is?

Senator Bragg:

Well, the main point about retirement policy is to help Australians have the best possible retirement, and it should all work together: private savings, superannuation, housing - should all be working in the same direction to ensure that people can have the best possible retirement. It's pretty simple.

Tom Elliott:

Well, if that's the case, why do periodically some politicians, you know, talk about investing in nation-building projects like, I don't know, very fast trains or something, or, you know, Pauline Hanson is saying young people should be able to access their super to buy a house, or, you know, people were allowed to withdraw their super to overcome personal hardships during COVID. I mean, why do we periodically move away from retirement?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I think we should be looking to have a healthy debate about how we get the best possible outcome, because a lot of Australians now can't afford a house, a lot of people will retire without a house. If you are retiring as a renter, you're going to have a much harder time of it than compared to someone who retires with a house that they own. And so that's why it's important that we have a serious debate that's fitting of our country's standards on the best way to calibrate all those systems. They don't necessarily all work together in sync: private savings outside of super, super savings, and housing.

Tom Elliott:

Because I mean, I said this the other day, I mean, one of the biggest things that suggests or defines poverty in old age, if you own your own home, you're, generally speaking, better off than people who are forced into the rental market...

Senator Bragg:

That's right. It's a fact.

Tom Elliott:

Yeah. Okay, so on that logic, you would allow people to access their super to buy a house, but the problem is if you do that, they'll have the house, but then they won't have the super, so, you know, it is a delicate balancing act.

Senator Bragg:

Well, that assumes that that's the only way for people to save. I mean, people save in all sorts of different ways, including through their house, Tom. So, look, I think the main point is this is an important debate to have. We want to lift the standards of the system. We want to look at ways to improve the amount of choices people have. I think we live in a free country, so more choices is always worthy of consideration. But Labor want to run a scare campaign. Jim Chalmers has failed as Treasurer, now he wants to get donations from people to run a scare campaign against people who just want to have a debate about how we can improve choices and improve standards in the super system. And by the way, this is the same guy who promised to fix all the death benefit problems—CBUS and other funds weren't paying death benefits. He said he'd fix that 18 months ago, he's done nothing.

Tom Elliott:

Mm, that's true. Okay, but I mean, we can have the debate, but I mean, what do you think? I mean, for example, I think in Singapore you can access their equivalent of super to buy an apartment as it usually is. I think you can also access it to pay for a child's education. Now, that's a much wider use of super than what we have here in Australia. I mean, are you saying just have a debate, or are you saying actually using your super for housing is a good idea?

Senator Bragg:

Well, just to be clear, we are in the midst of a policy review. We are looking at the best ways to align all the retirement policies, including super and housing. And that's because we recognise the centrality of housing to retirement. And think that's an important debate. Most Australians will look at that as a sensible thing for the politicians to be looking at. But as you know, the Labor Party want to run scare campaigns and they want to protect all their mates in the super funds. And I just think this is a sensible debate for us to have because the key determinant of your success in retirement is your housing status.

Tom Elliott:

Mm. Yeah, well, we've established that, I agree. But see, one of the other problems is, though, if you're a young person, you might only have, I don't know, $20,000 in super if you're in your mid-20s at best. So even if you could grab all of that, it's not really going to shift the dial on buying a house that much, is it?

Senator Bragg:

Well, it depends at what age you are. I mean, if you're in your 30s or your 40s, you might have a decent balance. If you're obviously just starting your career, you won't have much money at all. So, a lot of people now are looking to buy houses in their 40s as a first home now sometimes, which is quite depressing, but that's the system we now have. And so anything we can do to help people make their own choices—I mean, this is not about government choosing, this is about people choosing. I think we should be open to looking at these things because we live in a free society, and if people want to use their own money to do something that's going to help them, then it's something that we should be looking at closely.

Tom Elliott:

Well, yes, but the trade-off has always been, you know, the money you put into super, you don't get to spend it now, but you do pay a lot less tax on the way through, and then when you need it towards, you know, the later part of life when you're retired, there's a bigger lump of money than there would otherwise have been. All right. Well, but I mean, the thing that I fear is less so the people using it to buy a house, but when government starts saying let's use super to invest in nation-building projects. Like, I see there's a proposal launched today for a very fast train between Sydney and Newcastle, that will eventually go all the way to Brisbane and all the way down to Melbourne, and, you know, we've seen very fast train projects come and go. If the government came and ordered me to put my super fund into that, I mean, I'd run away from it.

Senator Bragg:

Well, I mean, you should do it yourself then, if you're worried about that. But look, the Labor government think that they can put their hands in the till all the time. The super funds behave badly in many cases: they rip people off, they don't pay death benefits, they charge super-high fees, and Jim Chalmers and Albo don't care, they do nothing about it, because these are all their mates. They're their friends. You know, you've got Dan Andrews and all the others now working in the super fund industry. So it's a pretty ugly picture. But as you have rightly identified, Tom, the superannuation is the people's money. It doesn't belong to the government, or to the unions, or to the Labor movement.

Tom Elliott:

All right. Thank you for your time. Andrew Bragg there, Shadow Minister for Housing and Homelessness.

[Ends]