Interview with Hamish Macdonald on ABC Radio Sydney

Hamish Macdonald

Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg is here to talk to you this morning. Good morning to you.

Senator Bragg

Hamish, how are you?

Hamish Macdonald

Very well, thank you. What exactly is it that you are wanting Muslims in Australia to do?

Senator Bragg

Well, I think that some of these proposals are worth further consideration because we have a major problem in Australia now. We've had a number of incidents in Sydney where, unfortunately, there's been a mutation of this religion which has driven certain people to undertake quite despicable acts. The truth is that we can't fix this problem without the support of the community, the Australian Muslim community. We need them to help us solve this wicked problem because we can't have our fellow citizens murdered because people have become adherents to a mutation of this religion. It doesn't mean that every individual is responsible, of course, but it's making the point that the community is an essential ingredient in solving it.

Hamish Macdonald

But what exactly are you wanting the broader Muslim community to do? Because as the Imams Council say, they were among the first to condemn the Bondi attacks, that whenever there is an incident, they stand up and say all of the right things. What precisely do you want?

Senator Bragg

I think the Imams have also been quite clear that the community itself, that they represent, needs to remain vigilant and I agree with them. The community should remain vigilant and should be looking for risks inside that community which could damage Australia more broadly. I think the point is that if so many of the Imams are trained overseas, maybe it is a good idea to see more of them trained in Australia in accordance with the new standards that have been passed, at least under the laws enacted by federal Parliament last week. I think it's a worthwhile discussion. I mean, the answer...

Hamish Macdonald

Hold on, I just want to pull you up on that because as Australian citizens, they're subject to those laws anyway. This just all seems very vague and broad, respectfully. What exactly are you wanting the Muslim community to do to take responsibility, as you said?

Senator Bragg

If the question is, what can be done for the community to get a better sense of security overall, my answer is that you need the Australian Muslim community to work very hard with us to ensure that we can not live with these risks that we've been seeing over the past decade, whether it's been the...

Hamish Macdonald

Are you saying Muslim leaders are not doing that, Senator?

Senator Bragg

I think that there's always room for improvement across the board, and whether it is training more people in Australia as Imams, whether it is a closer working relationship with the security agencies, whether it is the recommendations that come out of the Royal Commission. The point is, I don't think it's particularly controversial, frankly, to say that we can't solve this terrorism problem without a good relationship with the Australian Muslim community, which is a great part of our community here in Sydney. We need their support.

Hamish Macdonald

You'll be familiar with the backlash that's been prompted by your comments yesterday. Folks like Anne Aly, the Minister for Multicultural Affairs, someone that has worked in researching these particular areas in the past, the anti-Islamophobia Envoy, all coming out saying how dangerous it is to make comments like those that you made, that in fact, at a time of social fracturing and absence of cohesion, to tar an entire community with responsibility for the acts of two people might actually make things worse. Do you accept that?

Senator Bragg

Well, no one is tarring a whole community, but we've got to be honest and frank here. The fact is that these incidents have originated in these communities over the past decade, and we need more help to solve them. It's a great community - 99.9% of the people are excellent Australians. But we owe it to the broader community, to be honest and frank, that these issues are originating from a mutation of a religion, and we need support. This is the same thing that security agencies have said. This is the same thing the Imams have said before about vigilance. I just think we can't have a situation now that we've had a massacre, that we're going to be all overly politically correct and pretend these things aren't coming from a particular community. It doesn't mean that everyone is individually responsible, but we need more support and help.

Hamish Macdonald

But when we look at the language used by Neo-Nazi groups, for example, they rely on Christian tradition or thought. They rely on the colour of their skin. Are you saying that all of us that might identify as Christian or white should take responsibility for the actions of the Neo-Nazis?

Senator Bragg

No one is suggesting that every member of the community is responsible. But the fact is that we've had the Parramatta incident. We've had the Lindt siege. We've had 15 people murdered at Bondi. Unfortunately, they've all been adherents of a mutation of Islam, and we need more help in stopping these things from happening...

Hamish Macdonald

Understood...

Senator Bragg

We can't do it without the community...

Hamish Macdonald

But what role, what responsibility could a white Christian take for the actions of one of these Neo-Nazis standing up in front of state Parliament or at a rally? How can you expect people to do that if they don't even know the person, don't have anything to do with them? You're saying broadly, the Muslim community needs to take responsibility. I don't really understand what an individual Muslim could do.

Senator Bragg

I was asked yesterday about these proposals, and my answer is that we do need the Muslim community to work with governments and security agencies, and to look at the standards that are in these religious institutions to ensure that we can provide the community with more safety. The idea that we wouldn't be honest and frank about the challenges, I just think, is wrong. That's not leadership. I represent a huge Islamic community in New South Wales, which I've had good dealings with over the years. But friends have to be honest with each other, and this is not individual responsibility on every member of the community, but it's saying that to the leadership, we need more help here because we're failing. We've gone from a shooting, to a couple of people being shot, to now a massacre. We've really got to make sure that we do everything we can here. My hope is that the Royal Commission will make some recommendations in relation to these matters.

Hamish Macdonald

We're about to hear from the Imams Council this morning. Certainly in some countries I've worked in, in the Middle East, across the Arab world, the political class is quite sceptical of organised religion and places very strict parameters around the practise of faith, the leadership of faith. But also, those tend to be countries where there isn't necessarily freedom of speech. There are severe limitations on what people can think and say out loud, certainly. Is that the territory you think we should be getting into? The licensing of preachers, the approval of preachers, the monitoring of what they say? Is that the sort of thing you think might help? Because that seems to be what Scott Morrison is saying.

Senator Bragg

Well, I think you know that most of the preachers are trained offshore. I mean, maybe it would be better if they were primarily trained in Australia. I mean, maybe that would be helpful. I'm not into restraining people's speech, but certainly we don't want to see incitement of violence. That's already unlawful in New South Wales.

Hamish Macdonald

But Scott Morrison is talking about approval systems, where it's registered, is that the sort of thing you would like to see? Because we don't have a problem with a Catholic person going off to train overseas at the Vatican, for example, to learn more about their faith. We don't necessarily have a problem with a Jewish scholar or preacher going to Israel to study. I mean, this is quite a specific thing we're talking about.

Senator Bragg

I think in general, there are more opportunities for adherence of other faiths to train in Australia. But I would make the point that the Royal Commission, I hope, will make some significant recommendations in this field, and let's see where it gets to.

Hamish Macdonald

Senator Andrew Bragg is here. I know you're off to a funeral today. Katie Allen, your former colleague, died at the age of 59. You'll be remembering her along with your colleagues. But we can't...

Senator Bragg

I have to board this plane, I think.

Hamish Macdonald

Very briefly, then, what do you think voters make of the chaos that is consuming both the Liberals and the Nationals at the moment?

Senator Bragg

I think they're hoping that we can do a better job for all Australians, and that's what we intend to do.

Hamish Macdonald

Do you think you'll have a new leader soon in the Liberal Party?

Senator Bragg

No.

Hamish Macdonald

Andrew Bragg, thank you very much.

Senator Bragg

Thanks a lot.

[Ends]

‍