Interview with Andrew Clennell on Sunday Agenda

E&OE.........

Andrew Clennell:

All right, joining me live at the desk, Shadow Housing Minister Andrew Bragg after his interesting Press Club speech during the week. Thanks for joining us. 

Senator Bragg:

Andrew. How are you?

Andrew Clennell:

I'm fine. Let's talk about this address you gave at the Press Club. Why didn't you tell Angus Taylor what you were going to say in there?

Senator Bragg:

Well, it went through all the normal processes, but of course it's very hard to disconnect the massive housing problem from the massive economic problem that the nation has. You can't disconnect the two.

Andrew Clennell:

What went through all the normal processes? Did your speech go through the leader's office?

Senator Bragg:

Of course these things were all handled in the appropriate way, but I make the point that you can't separate the housing malaise from the economic malaise. So...

Andrew Clennell:

Okay, because let me get some clarity on this. The 180,000 figure, I think it was dropped to the paper prior to your speech. Did that go through…was that approved by the leader's office?

Senator Bragg:

Everything was consulted with my colleagues in the usual way...

Andrew Clennell:

Shadow Cabinet?

Senator Bragg:

You wouldn't expect me to go into every single personal conversation I have with colleagues, but of course the...

Andrew Clennell:

Did Angus know about the 180,000 before it appeared in the newspaper?

Senator Bragg:

As I said two answers ago, the speech went through the normal processes that you would expect for a speech like that to go through, and...

Andrew Clennell:

The leader's office?

Senator Bragg:

Yes, and as I said, it's impossible, Andrew, to disconnect the housing malaise from the nation's economic malaise. I mean, we are in a terrible place here where you see housing is just one...

Andrew Clennell:

I'll get to that. I'll get to that. Let's stay on this.

Senator Bragg:

Sure.

Andrew Clennell:

What did he say to you after the address then? Because it's said you were dressed down, or were you just dressed down about some of the other things you freelanced on, not the 180,000?

Senator Bragg:

Look, I talk to colleagues all the time, including the leader, and most times that Angus and I talk, we're talking about the massive housing challenge that we have. And that's why we announced that we were going to move to an 80-page Basic Australian Standard for housing construction, because Labor has completely failed to fix the housing system, and that's something that we're both excited about.

Andrew Clennell:

Where did you come up with this 180,000 target? Because I've been told Angus Taylor's promise could actually be far less if housing construction drops off before the election.

Senator Bragg:

So, I think it's important to note here that it's not a target, it's not a policy, it's not an opinion. These are just the facts on the ranges you need to be in if you want to close the housing gap over the forward estimates. So, you've got a shortfall of about 350 to 400,000 people, and so if you have a NOM in around that range, then you're going to get there over the forward estimates. It's just a fact.

Andrew Clennell:

You said in there we needed less baristas and pastry chefs and more chippies, but priority is given to carpenters currently, right? Not pastry chefs.

Senator Bragg:

But not enough. I mean, and if you look at the caps, they're too low. And so, we've been very clear that we need to see more tradies coming into the country, as well as training more apprentices.

Andrew Clennell:

You said you wanted to reduce working holiday makers, but this got a rebuff from the Nats, so what did you make of that?

Senator Bragg:

Well, I flagged that if you needed to close the housing migration gap, then that was the range in terms of the numbers, and then how you operationalise that is something that we need to talk about. But as Matt Canavan has said, that's an ongoing discussion for us to have.

Andrew Clennell:

Students. Pauline Hanson wants to see most of the international students gone. To get to that net migration target, you're going to have to get rid of a lot of students, international students, aren't you?

Senator Bragg:

Well, the point of that part of the speech was just saying really that there were two things: there's the range in terms of the numbers, then how you operationalise that is something we need to consult on carefully with business, community, colleagues.

Andrew Clennell:

You're going to have to cut students though, aren't you? They're a third of the intake at the moment.

Senator Bragg:

Well, we'll have to work through that.

Andrew Clennell:

Do you think you'll have to cut international stu- the number of international students coming?

Senator Bragg:

We'll have to consult very carefully, because these are very important economic judgements for the country.

Andrew Clennell:

Okay, so you've just pulled this figure out of the air then, because it's 180,000, but you can't even tell me who's going to miss out.

Senator Bragg:

No. We're talking about two different things. There's two things here: firstly, there's the range. No one doubts the range. If you want to close the housing migration gap over the forwards, it's got to be around 180, okay? How you do it is a matter for consultation.

Andrew Clennell:

The net migration target you nominated was the lowest since 2014-15 when Tony Abbott was in, but at that time Australia had 6% unemployment. So not as many people were coming and more were leaving. To achieve this target, perhaps you need higher unemployment?

Senator Bragg:

Well, we achieved a consolidation of migration 15 years ago after the so-called Big Australia debate, so you can do it. And I think it's important that we do do this because the housing system is in such terrible disarray, right? You've got more taxes, more regulation, more people than we've ever had before. You've got corruption, and Labor has tanked the whole housing system to a point that I think most Australians would now say that this is one of the biggest failures in our history.

Andrew Clennell:

Your comments on compulsory super and basically saying it shouldn't exist, do you want to backtrack from them?

Senator Bragg:

It's very clear that if you want to have a safe retirement, then housing is at the core of that. And so we have for the last few elections had a policy which looks at the nexus between super and housing, and that is something that is still under review.

Andrew Clennell:

You could do that again, so you can take super money out to spend on a deposit, what Pauline Hanson just suggested?

Senator Bragg:

It's under review. There's a whole lot of different ways you can do it. As you know...

Andrew Clennell:

Just inflates house prices, doesn't it?

Senator Bragg:

No, I mean, as you know, I've always been sceptical about whether or not this scheme is actually working for the country, but in a policy outworking sense, we are of course reviewing all our policies. We've announced some important housing policies, but we're still looking at how we can get more people into houses with targeted demand-side solutions. But the bulk of our housing policy, Andrew, will be on the supply side.

Andrew Clennell:

You also said in your speech the top tax rates for individuals are too high and should have a 3 in front of them. Now, reducing the top tax bracket to 39% would cost the budget 50 billion over four years. Are you aware of that?

Senator Bragg:

Of course I'm aware of it, but I have never met a Liberal that didn't want to see lower, flatter taxes, and we've made good progress with the Tax Back Guarantee, and I think we ought to be ambitious and hungry for our country. We have a tax system which is out of control. We have some of the world's highest taxes now in the OECD. We have punitive taxes on people working and on capital gains. I mean, this country is sinking, so we need to lift the tenor of the debate to look at some of these things.

Andrew Clennell:

Would you accept this is pretty unconventional for a Shadow Minister, when you talk about Shadow Cabinet solidarity, to come out with all these grand statements which affect policy?

Senator Bragg:

Well, you tell me, how do you disconnect the housing malaise from the economic malaise? I mean, the fact that the housing system is so bad is just a feature...

Andrew Clennell:

That wasn't my question, with respect. It's like, what are you doing? Like you're a Shadow Minister. Why are you just coming out and pretending to be like a leader, with some of these statements?

Senator Bragg:

Well, it's very clear that we need to look at the tax system over the longer term. It's not controversial.

Andrew Clennell:

Isn't that an argument for you in Shadow Cabinet, not for the National Press Club? So your leader has to, you know, say, 'Well, sorry, that's not our policy'?

Senator Bragg:

People have broader ideas they want to debate. It was very clear that the speech had Coalition policies, and then it had areas of debate that we should have. I think that's healthy. I mean, I'm hungry and ambitious for this country to avoid the massive decline that we're now on track for. I mean, the country's trajectory is terrible. If you look at productivity, the Budget, inflation, interest rates, the housing system...

Andrew Clennell:

So are you saying this in Shadow Cabinet at the moment? Are you with Angus saying, 'Come on, let's lower this tax to the...'?

Senator Bragg:

I always say this. I always say this. Everyone knows I'm always arguing...

Andrew Clennell:

He's not listening to you at the moment?

Senator Bragg:

You could go into a straw poll of my colleagues, and they would say that I'm always arguing for lower taxes. I'm desperate to get taxes down, because I know that's how to fix the housing system in particular. I mean, the housing thing is...

Andrew Clennell:

Do we have to, when you utter, you know, sentences in interviews, do we have to have a situation where you say, 'This is our policy, and this is what I'd like'? Because that's what it sounds like.

Senator Bragg:

Well, that's very funny, but as but as you know, the housing system is a bug of Labor's economic model, right, where they put more and more money into the housing system, you get fewer and fewer houses, productivity is in the in the toilet, you've got the CFMEU running the show, you've got the regulation out of control, and that's why we've announced this plan to to cut regulation, because we want to build more houses.

Andrew Clennell:

Peta Credlin wrote this morning you should be demoted for freelancing at the Press Club. What do you make of that?

Senator Bragg:

Well, people are entitled to their opinion. I welcome it.

Andrew Clennell:

Just briefly, I'm nearly out of time. Pauline Hanson says she doesn't like the gay Mardi Gras. What do you make of that?

Senator Bragg:

Oh, I go most years, I think it's great. Do you want to come with me next year?

Andrew Clennell:

Probably not, but you know. I'll see if I'm free. Andrew Bragg, thanks for your time.

Senator Bragg:

See you.

[Ends]

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