Patricia Karvelas:
Economic management has taken centre stage in the early days of the election campaign. But the vote on May 21 will also be about broader social issues which go to recognition and inclusion.
The creators of the Uluru Statement say history is calling the major parties to commit to a referendum on an Indigenous Voice to Parliament. (Plays grab) "If we leave it and further kick the can down, we will lose my pension. There is a shift in the community generally, and we think it's time to go now." That's Uluru Statement leader Pat Anderson on RN breakfast just yesterday. Coalition Senator Andrew Bragg is the author of Buraadja, The Liberal Case for National Reconciliation, and he's our guest, welcome.
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Hey PK, how are you?
Patricia Karvelas:
I'm good. The Uluru statement from the heart was released in May 2017, a long time ago now. The coalition government has already had two terms and nearly five years to move on constitutional recognition, but so far, nothing.
Why would people believe that giving you another term in government would make any difference?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, I agree with Pat Anderson and Megan Davis that there has been a lot of progress made in this term. The Voice co-design process, which has been led by Tom Calma and Marcia Langton has actually put the meat on the bones on the Voice. The missing part is what are the sort of constitutional amendments that we might be able to consider, and that is something that I think we can pursue in the next term, knowing that we now have the meat on the bones for the Voice.
Patricia Karvelas:
Okay. So what do you think the Morrison Government can do in the next term?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, I mean, Ken Wyatt's test has always been that we would put a referendum to the people if we could win it. And I think that you could win a referendum in the next term on a Voice, and I think that should be our ambition. Certainly.
Patricia Karvelas:
But that's not what the leadership of your party thinks.
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, our position has been that we will put a referendum to the people if it could be won. And I think what I'm saying is totally consistent with that.
I think what we need to see in building the next term is a design competition effectively, where you can see the different models that could be acceptable to Indigenous people and acceptable to the broader Australian community because it's a very high bar. I mean we haven't had a successful referendum since 1977. So I don't want to put it into the never, never. I do think we should try and resolve it in the first half of the next term.
Patricia Karvelas:
The Uluru leadership has nominated two possible dates for a referendum on the Voice, 27 May 2023 or 27 January 2024. If the support is there for a yes vote, would your side of politics finally allow a referendum if you are reelected?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, I've strongly supported a new accommodation for Australia Day for some time. I think that 27th January is the ideal day to put a referendum, but we need to do the work on the models. I mean, there are a range of views on complex models to simpler models. And as I say, we haven't had a referendum won for more than 40 years, so we need to make sure that it can be won. I would say the 27th January 2024 should be our target if it wins the election.
Patricia Karvelas:
If it wins the election labor is promising a referendum in its first term to both recognised first Australians and enshrine a Voice to Parliament. Is it now more likely that these historical achievements will be achieved by Labor government?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
No, I don't think so. And if you look at history, the 1967 referendum was delivered by the Holt government and Land Rights were delivered by the Fraser government. In this term of Parliament, the Morrison government has appointed the first Indigenous Member to the cabinet, has developed co-design, has bought the Aboriginal flag and has funded the Ngurra precinct in Canberra. So I think we have a strong record on Indigenous Affairs.
Patricia Karvelas:
You've been trying to convince your Liberal and National colleagues to adopt the Uluru statement and ensure Indigenous voices are heard. Are you any closer to mapping a pathway through the differences within the Coalition?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Yes, and I think that there are a range of views in the coalition party room about these matters, and I respect my colleagues, but I would say that there is a strong body of support for constitutional recognition and to give Indigenous people more agency and more control through something like a Voice. So I'm optimistic about this.
Patricia Karvelas:
I want to move to another issue you've been outspoken about today, the issue of trans women playing in all female sporting teams has written it up as an election issue. Some of your colleagues, and they are supported by the Prime Minister, want them banned. What do you think should happen?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well colleagues, again, have strong positions on these issues, but my job is to be Senator and scrutinise legislation. And so if people want to put forward concepts in private Senator's bills, then these things should be put through the process. And that would be the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee in the Senate, and we can look at all the evidence.
Patricia Karvelas:
That's a very legal answer. The Prime Minister says he thinks it's a good idea. Do you think it's a good idea?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well people are entitled to their view.
Patricia Karvelas:
That's not my question. Do you think it's a good idea?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
As I said, it's a detailed bill. It needs to go to a committee and the committee can look at all the evidence. What's most important is that we get the evidence from the professional and from the community sporting organisations about the operation of the existing law, where there are already strong carve outs and any new proposals. I mean, that's what you would expect the Senate to do.
Patricia Karvelas:
So tell me what, you say there's already protection. That's not what they're saying. Where's the protection? Can you explain that?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, in the Sex Discrimination Act, there are carve outs for strength and stamina which sporting clubs can avail themselves of. So we need to understand all the evidence before proceeding any further. And I think we can make recommendations to government as part of that Senate inquiry. So the a legal and constitutional affaris Ccommittee, and it might sound boring, but I mean, it's a committee that does a lot of this detailed legal work and these are complex legal questions that need to be properly investigated. We want people to have their say. We want to see submissions, we want to see public hearing before making recommendations to government.
Patricia Karvelas:
But right now the impression that's been created, ordinary people have raised it with me, is that actually those carve outs are not there. That we're being led to believe. You're saying that there are enough protections in the law?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, that's why I've always been an advocate for Senate process, because I think it does allow people to put in public submissions to have a public debate, to put forward evidence and to make recommendations to government. And as part of that review, the existing provisions can be examined. I think that is appropriate. I mean, some of these things are sober because they are deeply legal.
Patricia Karvelas:
But they're deeply personal too. And the trans community is feeling really worried at the moment. What's your message to them?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well, I mean, I've had a strong record I would say, over the years of standing up for that community and that is something that I know that all members and senators want to ensure we get right and we can protect people. But people are entitled to put forward their positions and put forward their views. And the Senate can review legal proposals in the usual way. I mean, that's how the process works.
Patricia Karvelas:
But with the Prime Minister backing the ban, how will this go down in those city seats the Liberal Party is trying to defend against progressive female candidates?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
As you know, I'm not a commentator.
Patricia Karvelas:
No but you must be worried?
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Well it's a private Senator's bill, it should go to a Senate Committee.
Patricia Karvelas:
Yeah but the Prime Minister says he thinks it's a good idea. This is the issue.
Senator Andrew Bragg:
All legislation has to go through the Parliament. I mean, the Parliament reviews legislation, makes recommendations to government before it is voted on. Now there will be a range of views on these things. As I say, I think that there are from existing protections in the law, those can be considered as part of the Senate inquiry.
Patricia Karvelas:
Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg, thanks for your time.
Senator Andrew Bragg:
Thanks a lot.
Patricia Karvelas:
Andrew Bragg is a Liberal Senator for New South Wales and you're listening to ABC RN in breakfast.
